Are you comfortable with that?

Published on February 15, 2006 By dharmagrl In Religion

Here's a question for all the Christians in the house:

How comfortable are you with the thought of sharing heaven with a mass murderer? A pedophile? A person who delighted in torturing little children before they beat them to death?

How comfortable are you with spending eternity with people who rob and rape and kill and pervert and abuse? With people who were so vile in life that they had to be segregated from the general population and imprisoned for the rest of their lives? With people who behaved so heinously that they were executed?

As long as a person repents before they draw their last breath, as long as they truly are sorry for the life they've lived and the kind of things they've done, they are (according to Christianity, anyway) granted forgiveness and eternal life in heaven. Which means that a person could live a life full of murder and torture and horrors that make even seasoned police officers cry, but as long as they repented before their drew their last breath, they would be assured a place in heaven. Tookie Williams, for example, could have repented as the drugs that would stop his heart were flowing into his veins....and he could be walking the same heavenly streets as we speak.

How does that make you feel? I ask because I'm genuinely interested. I'm not being facetious and I'm not trying to stir the pot of anti-christianity, I'm really truly interested.

I don't believe in the kind of heaven Christianity is selling. I don't believe in streets paved with gold where everyone lives in human form and is eternally happy and jolly and glad. I don't believe in that, so my feelings about sharing that kind of place with serial killers and pedophiles is moot - how can I express an opinion about sharing a place that I don't believe exists?

I'm very interested to see the different responses people have.

Comments (Page 1)

Danny Bassette

on Feb 15, 2006

I can't say that I care either way about people that have done any of those things getting into heaven, at least if God decides to let them in. If heaven was restricted to perfect people it would be practically empty. If God wants people that have done those things to be there, then who am I to tell him he's wrong. I would assume that if such a person were to get in they would no longer be the person they were when they committed the sins in question. Forgiving is one of the basic points of christianity.
As for heaven, I don't think the streets are paved with gold either. Human form seems unlikely as well. The eternally happy and joyful I would expect. I can't understand how that would work, but that's fine. I would be surprised if heaven could be comprehended by any of us foolish mortals.

Tova7

on Feb 15, 2006

I ditto Danny...

And would like to add....I think I will be so relieved to FINALLY come face to face with Jesus, I won't really care about the neighbors.

cactoblasta

on Feb 15, 2006

Christianity also requires that you turn the other cheek and forgive those who wrong you. So if you do get to heaven, you've already forgiven the truly repentent pedophile. So it wouldn't matter.

bakerstreet

on Feb 15, 2006

"As long as a person repents before they draw their last breath, as long as they truly are sorry for the life they've lived and the kind of things they've done, they are (according to Christianity, anyway) granted forgiveness and eternal life in heaven. "

At least in Catholicism you have purgatory:

"In official Catholic teaching, after death, people who had repented for their sins, but had not expiated them, are purged before entering Heaven."

I don't like it, frankly. I would assume that if someone really, really repents then they really technically aren't the same person they were and aren't capable of doing such a thing. But, then, I'm not a GOOD Christian, either. I personally think that someone who could purposely victimize a child is probably too far gone to ever really repent of it.

I know, that isn't nice, and Jesus wasn't that way, yadda yadda. I gave up trying to be perfect a long time ago. IMHO, I don't have the authority to forgive someone unless a) I'm God, or The wrong was done to me. In leiu of those circumstances, I'll leave the forgiving to people qualified. God made me what I am, and I am primarily a father. Nothing, and I mean nothing on Earth is more dispicable than someone that would hurt a child. To me Hell was conceived just for people like that.

bakerstreet

on Feb 15, 2006

I'd add that, to me, once a person is repentant, I can't imagine anything closer to Hell than the knowledge of what you had done, especially in a place like Heaven where such a thing would be so utterly alien.

thatoneguyinslc

on Feb 15, 2006

At least in Catholicism you have purgatory

They brought it back? News to this ex-Catholic.

MarcieMoo

on Feb 15, 2006

Hmmm...my cousin is a murderer. But he's also a Christian. I know I'll be happy to see him in heaven. My uncle stole $14,000,000 dollars from his employer and is in prison. I'll be happy to see him in heaven.

I don't think that what other people do or don't do negates what *I'm* doing. Does that make sense? If I'm Christian, and I truly want EVERYONE to be Christian, I don't where when and where that conversion takes place, as long as it happens.

In reality though, I am prideful. If say, Tookie Williams did become a Christian while those chemicals were coursing through his veins, I suppose I'd feel a little...jipped. Because he got to live fast and hard and I'm 25 years old and haven't really done anything "bad"...you know? I guess I don't know if that makes sense.

dharmagrl

on Feb 15, 2006

I would assume that if such a person were to get in they would no longer be the person they were when they committed the sins in question. Forgiving is one of the basic points of christianity.
As for heaven, I don't think the streets are paved with gold either. Human form seems unlikely as well.

Yes, but what about the person who has been horrible in life but who repents at the very last moment of their life? What about them?

One of the things that spurred my decision to quite teaching sunday school was the senior teacher's insistence on telling kids (young and teenagers alike) that heaven's streets were paved with gold and that we'd have feasts and banquests and all kinds of parties. I felt like I couldn't impart upon young minds things that I didn't believe to be true, and that if I continued to do so I'd be a hypocrite. So, I quit. But, a LOT of people think the same way, that we'll all be in human form and we'll do all manner of human things and activities.

I would assume that if someone really, really repents then they really technically aren't the same person they were and aren't capable of doing such a thing.

Who's to say? I could repent tomorrow and still be basically the same person I am today. We can't assume things like that.

Nothing, and I mean nothing on Earth is more dispicable than someone that would hurt a child. To me Hell was conceived just for people like that.

And I agree with you, but.....how would you feel if you knew that someone who you'd looked down upon in life because their actions reduced them to nothing better than pondscum (Parated's 'bacteria' is a good example) would be sharing the same heaven as you?

Christianity also requires that you turn the other cheek and forgive those who wrong you. So if you do get to heaven, you've already forgiven the truly repentent pedophile. So it wouldn't matter

Christianity requires a LOT of things from people that a lot of times are ignored, like not being a pharisee for example. Forgiveness can be a terribly hard thing to accomplish, and I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of Christians holding grudges walking around, unable and probably unwilling to truly forgive someone.

I'd add that, to me, once a person is repentant, I can't imagine anything closer to Hell than the knowledge of what you had done

Ahh, yes. I'm running into that myself, actually. I'm having problems with some things I did earlier in my life...it's nothing horrible; I didn't kill anyone and I didn't steal anything...now that I've changed the way I do things and the way I look at things it's killing me to accept the things I DID do way back when. I can't imagine what someone who tortured and killed a defenseless child has to live with.

Moderateman

on Feb 15, 2006

Maybe there is some "low rent" places in heaven so we will not have to share space with the awful people that escape at the last moment by saying sorry, I repent.

dharmagrl

on Feb 15, 2006

In reality though, I am prideful. If say, Tookie Williams did become a Christian while those chemicals were coursing through his veins, I suppose I'd feel a little...jipped. Because he got to live fast and hard and I'm 25 years old and haven't really done anything "bad"...you know? I guess I don't know if that makes sense.

It makes PERFECT sense, and thank you for being so honest. That's what I was getting at - here you are striving every day to adhere to your faith's tenets, but there he was robbing and killing his way through life. To think that you will share the same heaven because he repented at the last minute - that would sting me a bit if I was christian.

Thanks for such an honest answer, marcie. That's the standard I'd like to see in all the comments.

Shovelheat

on Feb 15, 2006

Here's my answer for what it's worth.
I believe that the same folks who fuck you up in this life are gonna be there waiting for you in the next one too. Your assignment, if you choose to accept it and live in eternal peace, is to just find a way to deal with it.

My expierence in dealing with these kinds of people over the last twelve years is that they are remarkably like everybody else. I remember being at a car show in a park one summer afternoon and talking to a guy about the cycles on display and a week later found myself booking him in on a murder warrant from California. Funny, but at the time I was talking to him he had aready killed and buried a guy in the dessert and I (like everybody else there that day) didn't know the difference.

Good article Dharma. Thought provoking...

MarcieMoo

on Feb 15, 2006

The human journey...Christian or anything else...is about growth, isn't it? It's about making mistakes and learning from them. My cousin that killed that guy...I guess I haven't really talked to him about it...but he lives his life like a normal person, you know? He works, he bought a house, he's dating, he's going to church. What he did was really bad, but I think that when you make a mistake like he did...an *awful* mistake, you learn from it, realize how much of a gift you have, and you choose not to let it go to waste. You can't stop living your life...

Incidentally, my uncle that stole all that money--he said the most liberating moment of his life was the day he got caught. And I believe it. All those years of living a lie...and now that he's in prison, he's leading Bible studies, helping the guys in his dorm get their GED's and such. He's doing stuff that *matters*...not sitting behind a desk writing illegal checks. He's working real work--he was plowing snow a winter or two ago and he actually got LOCKED out of the facility and they wouldn't let him back in (ha ha!!!!), and this Thanksgiving he finally got a 24 hour period to be out with his family. Things are actually better now than they were before.

Things happen for a reason. If Tookie became a believer that last moment of his life, I believe that happened purposefully. Jeffrey Dahmer professed to be a Christian before he was killed (although who knows). You just never know...

BlueDev

on Feb 15, 2006

I think this nicely sums up what I believe:

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

Alma Chapter 34: 32-34 (The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ)

bakerstreet

on Feb 16, 2006

"Who's to say? I could repent tomorrow and still be basically the same person I am today. We can't assume things like that."

That's kind of the definition of repentance, though. If you are still the same person the next day, I doubt your repentance would be sincere, and therefore you probably can't lie your way into heaven by way of an omnipotent God.

new-age nomad

on Feb 16, 2006

Alright, so get ready for the almighty philosophy of Trinitie:

Murderers and rapists won't be merderers and rapists in heaven. They will be....well, basically unrecognizable. Even friends and family (and enemies) will be long lost.

Honestly, I would be proud to share heaven with anyone who lived a broken life (no matter how broken it may have been) and repented (no matter how late they may have been). To me, these people are heroes. To have seen hell and to have felt forsaken, and to have found some path back to the light.....is simply amazing.

I've done some pretty shitty things....maybe not comparable to rape or murder, but nonetheless shitty.

I can only hope that people like Dan

will be willing share their cloud with me.

I rule.

Trinitie

Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:

Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums.
Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
It's simple, and FREE!