See, now we're getting off subject. My question was how people would feel about sharing their eternity with some pretty unsavory characters, not about god and his decisions

it is actually one and the same.  I can say "I am sorry", but if I dont mean it, it means nothing.  However, God Knows (according to my beliefs) whether we mean it or not.  And as someone else said, the least of my worries is the fact that he is in heaven (BTW:  I dont go for the Streets of Gold either - it is a spiritual, not corporeal place).  More is how he/she feels for the evil they have done.  They have an eternity to think about it.

If they honestly and truly repent, then I would think they deserve a second chance. If it's just a fake "lol i repent" on the deathbed, then it's just another lie in a long series of evil.

But I don't know what happens after the ol' ticker stops. So anything I say is kinda pointless, isn't it?

But I don't know what happens after the ol' ticker stops.

Neither do I, and neither does anyone else here.  All we have to go on are some thousands of years old texts and the accounts of a few people who may have been experiencing a rather delightful side effect of oxygen depravation and mistook it for heaven.  I can guess at what I think happens and give you my opinion, but that's all. 

If they honestly and truly repent, then I would think they deserve a second chance. If it's just a fake "lol i repent" on the deathbed, then it's just another lie in a long series of evil

There are only two people who know whether the repentee is being sincere or not.  I don't know that many people are going to have an easy time of giving a person who has done some inhumane things to babies and children a second chance, though.  I know that I'd have difficulty doing it.  But then again, I'm not going to the christian heaven either, so it doesn't really bother me.

 

I can say "I am sorry", but if I dont mean it, it means nothing. However, God Knows (according to my beliefs) whether we mean it or not.

According to a lot of people's beliefs he does, yes.  But would you be happy about spending eternity in the company of a man who had raped an infant, who had starved and tortured a four year old to death?  Because that's what I was getting at. 

I believe that what we're supposed to do is attempt to emulate the divine, not to lift ourselves up to His level

And that's a mistake a lot of people make in their quest for salvation, I think.  They put themselves on the same level as their deity rather than simply trying to emulate some of the deity's more attractive traits.

Adventure Dude:  Yeah, that's always been a major stumbling block for me; the christian church's preaching that material wealth isn't important but going ahead and building bigger and better churches anyway, asking for more and more in the collection plate and having a congregation turning up their noses at folks who don't have a lot of material wealth. 

I just couldn't do it any more, dude.  We had tried many different churches, so it wasn't just one church that was that way....it was a TON.  As in every one we went to.  Besides, I felt like I'd been living a lie for a while.  So, I quit believing.  I let that small voice I had felt for ages start talking a little louder, and I discovered that you don't have to be a christian in order to have morals.  So, I let myself have at it with other religions and learned some very interesting things along the way.

According to a lot of people's beliefs he does, yes. But would you be happy about spending eternity in the company of a man who had raped an infant, who had starved and tortured a four year old to death? Because that's what I was getting at.

You missed the point again.  Yes I would be, because they were truly repentant.  And they have eternity to suffer for their sins.  I do not judge, that is up to God.  And if he says they are repentent, then (given that I have never been to heaven so I dont know what the helll I am talking about, but only believe it to be so) yes, I am ok with it.  I have my own sins to think about for eternity.  Some bad, none as bad as your scenerio.  And I have to live with my repetence as well.

Again, once someone is repentant (and I understand that in this life few are - including me at times), who are we to say they are not sincere since God has already judged them, and judged them to be so?

Basically, God is the ultimate lie detector. If scumbags say "I'm sorry!" out of fear to save their ass from hell, I am thinking, if things are as the christians are saying, that God will spot the bullshit and send them on the hell express. I would think Too little too late would apply.

Basically, God is the ultimate lie detector.

That comes with omniscience. Eh?

I am so conflicted about what I believe. I do believe in God. I do find comfort in the rituals of mass and the Catholic church but I disagree with many of their teachings. I guess I would say that I believe that above anything else God is fair. I believe in an ultimate justice and that people will have to answer for all the hurt they caused someone else. I had heard a description of final judgement that you would feel all the hurts you caused other people times 100 but you would also feel the blessings you gave other people that great too. Who knows? It's just a comforting idea at times.

As far as the marriage thing goes, I don't know chapter and verse but I think somewhere in the bible it says that you are neither married or given in marriage in heaven but you become like the angels.

I do have to agree with Jilluser that I think heaven where everyone is perfect sounds pretty boring. The sinners are what make life interesting. Not the murdering type sinners. I guess I'm saying our humaness and imperfections are what make life interesting. I don't want to spend eternity slapping a tambourine on my leg singing kumbaya.

But I really don't even know if there is a heaven or a hell.

If you are still the same person the next day, I doubt your repentance would be sincere, and therefore you probably can't lie your way into heaven by way of an omnipotent God.

Those are my thoughts, too. True repentance means not just turning to God, but turning FROM your sin. It means your heart is changed. If one truly repents, I don't think he IS the same person the next day. Progress is often slow, and sometimes it takes me several times to learn things... but one who continues in a particular sin as a habitual lifestyle (pedophilia, for example) hasn't truly repented in my mind. Then again, that's for God to judge.

Honestly, I would be proud to share heaven with anyone who lived a broken life (no matter how broken it may have been) and repented (no matter how late they may have been). To me, these people are heroes. To have seen hell and to have felt forsaken, and to have found some path back to the light.....is simply amazing.

This gets an insightful from me, Trinitie... very cool (and I agree).

My question was how would people feel about sharing eternity with people like that - we all seem to feel superior to 'those' people, and a lot of christians I know are really quite uncomfortable sharing their eternity with people like that.

I wonder if part of the problem isn't focusing on someone else's sin rather than my own. Comparing myself to others is damaging in a number of ways. First, it takes my eyes off my Savior, the object of my faith. Secondly, when I'm looking at someone else, I'm avoiding the sin in my own life. It's so much easier to tear someone else down in order to build myself up than it is to deal with the things about me that need to change. If I can just point out how bad someone else is, then I might feel better about myself. "Compared to Jeffrey Dahmer, I'm a saint!" It doesn't matter in God's eyes. Sin is sin. My sin is just as evil as someone else's. I can't do anything about someone else... but if I'm willing to take a long hard look at myself, then I DO have the power to control how I live MY life. When I am able to realistically see the faults that are mine to own, it has a way of destroying pride and keeping me from feeling superior to anyone. There's enough about me that God needs to change... who has time to tackle worrying about someone else? Does that make sense?

I also believe that only God knows the heart. There are many who claim to be Christian that will not find themselves in Heaven. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. Something He's been impressing upon me lately. If I truly want to live a Christlike life, then I need to see people through His eyes. That means that instead of seeing the irritating things they do... the sinful things, even... I will look beyond that to see the heart, and why they are the way they are. Or try to at least. My immediate reaction is to jump all over them and get angry and complain... but slowly I'm learning to think before I respond and to try to imagine what makes them the way they are, what insecurities might be there to cause them to be so annoying, or rude, or whatever. Once I discover that (and it means taking the time to get to know them -- not easy when it's someone you don't particularly care for to begin with), the next step is for me to see what God would have me do to meet their need. I wish I were a quicker study. I still need so much grace. Sorry -- that's a bit off topic, I guess. Just got to thinking out loud.

Here's a thought: if christianity is about humility and doesn't put a hugh price on material possessions, why do they go on about the streets being paved with gold in heaven and why are kids told that they can have whatever they want, when they want there? Isn't that sending a mixed message at the very least, and at the worst isn't that contrary to the teachings of christ and the bible?

I don't believe either of those things. I think when it talks about streets of gold it doesn't mean literal gold, but is used to describe them -- the color maybe? I've never thought they were made of actual gold. I do know that many Christians believe that, though. Also, I don't think of heaven as a place where you get whatever you want. For me, I don't even think about what it will look like really. Instead it's just about finally seeing Jesus face to face. People talk about all these things they're going to ask Him ("Why did you create mosquitoes?"), but honestly... I don't think I'm going to care. I think I'll be blown away by being in His presence and the rest of it won't matter to me anymore.

I discovered that you don't have to be a christian in order to have morals.

Excellent point. My brother-in-law and I don't share the same spiritual beliefs (although he does believe in God, he's not fundamental like I am), but we (he and his wife and my husband and I) have a solid connection and can really relate to one another because we do follow similar moral codes. His children are some of the best behaved kids I have ever met (much more so than most of the "churched" kids I know) and we LOVE getting together and talking about everything and anything. I've often thought it's because we're operating from similar moral codes.

I just couldn't do it any more, dude. We had tried many different churches, so it wasn't just one church that was that way....it was a TON.

And this is such a sad commentary on the modern church. I'm sorry this was your experience, K. Truly.

Thanks for an interesting discussion. I've enjoyed the various responses

Yes I would be, because they were truly repentant.

That's all I needed to know.  Thanks.

I would think Too little too late would apply.

But there's the problem....from what I've been told, even if a person repented, truly repented with their final breath, they would be forgiven and allowed to share heaven for eternity.  I'd like to believe in the 'too late' cause as well, but....that might not be the way it is.

I believe in an ultimate justice and that people will have to answer for all the hurt they caused someone else. I had heard a description of final judgement that you would feel all the hurts you caused other people times 100 but you would also feel the blessings you gave other people that great too. Who knows? It's just a comforting idea at times.

Funnily enough, it's a comforting idea that appears in one form or another throughout all the major religions and philosophies of the world. I call it karma, and I've seen it and felt it at work.  I KNOW that's how things are.

 

Progress is often slow, and sometimes it takes me several times to learn things... but one who continues in a particular sin as a habitual lifestyle (pedophilia, for example) hasn't truly repented in my mind. Then again, that's for God to judge.

I think that you can say with safety and in a non-judgemental way that a person who continues to indulge in a perversion after they have claimed to repent and be 'saved'.....well, that person really isn't 'saved' at all because they're continuing to indulge, you dig?  It's not being judgemental, it's just being practical.

I wonder if part of the problem isn't focusing on someone else's sin rather than my own

BINGO!  I never thought about that until you said it.....that's it exactly!

Instead it's just about finally seeing Jesus face to face. People talk about all these things they're going to ask Him ("Why did you create mosquitoes?"), but honestly... I don't think I'm going to care. I think I'll be blown away by being in His presence and the rest of it won't matter to me anymore.

That's a wonderful thing to believe in.

 

My brother-in-law and I don't share the same spiritual beliefs (although he does believe in God, he's not fundamental like I am), but we (he and his wife and my husband and I) have a solid connection and can really relate to one another because we do follow similar moral codes

I find that people are actually surprised when they discover I'm not christian.  They expect our kids to be a bunch of little heathens and us to be having all kinds of extra marital affairs and worshipping gawd knows what in the back yard and having seances and rituals with slaughtered goats and stuff.  In reality it's much more bland a really very boring!

And this is such a sad commentary on the modern church. I'm sorry this was your experience, K. Truly.

Don't apologize; you have nothing to apologize for.  It's not your fault.  Besides, if it hadn't happened, I'd never have found what I found and I wouldn't be as happy as I am.  So, it happened for a reason, and I'm seeing the results of it!

"They expect our kids to be a bunch of little heathens and us to be having all kinds of extra marital affairs and worshipping gawd knows what in the back yard and having seances and rituals with slaughtered goats and stuff. In reality it's much more bland a really very boring!"

Speak for yourself. Ia, Ia, Cthulhu fhtagn!

I think that everyone who goes to heaven will be suprised to see who did (and didn't) make it also.

For me, I wouldn't have a problem with seeing people who lived terrible lives in heaven with me. The only judge is Jesus, and that means that He alone gets to decide if a person's repentance or acceptance of His atonement was sincere.

I do think that I'll be so excited that I am in heaven that I won't care much about who I see there! ;~D People often wonder how they would react if, while in heaven, they met up with a person who did something against them that destroyed their life. The thing of that question is, who was the biggest sinner, the criminal or the person unwilling to forgive the criminal? Christ is willing to take upon Himself all the sins of those who accept His atonement. The question is, are we willing to allow Him to take our sins upon Him, or would we rather hold on to them ourselves?.

do think that I'll be so excited that I am in heaven that I won't care much about who I see there! ;~D People often wonder how they would react if, while in heaven, they met up with a person who did something against them that destroyed their life. The thing of that question is, who was the biggest sinner, the criminal or the person unwilling to forgive the criminal? Christ is willing to take upon Himself all the sins of those who accept His atonement. The question is, are we willing to allow Him to take our sins upon Him, or would we rather hold on to them ourselves?.

ohhh ouch. That stings...I've been the one to hold a grudge and later found that it only hurt me.

My take on heaven. If heaven is so great, then God has it organized pretty well. A murdererer and a saint may not be the best roommates, so I'm pretty sure that I won't be sharing a place with a rapist or an ex who resents me or a catholic saint. I like how ParaTed said he would be so thrilled just to be there.....I think that's me too. so maybe we wwill realize just how much this life isn't the whole thing, that it's such a small part of the bigger picture?

I might feel jipped that I followed all the rules, but repentance can be a very painful process. If you have ever screwed up and truely had to make ammends and seek forgiveness, you know that it is much more than a fleeting "sorry". If someone screws up in life and doesn't repent here on earth, I *think* *hope* that they are not lost forever.....but can you imagine how hard it would be to make amends and gain forgiveness at that point? After all, when faith isn't an option and you are looking at heaven/hell face to face, everyone will say "sorry". But I doubt it's that easy. I'm betting we will feel sorry for anyone who didn't catch on to the rules here on earth.....If they do get to heaven, they will pay a heavy price for repentance.

Speak for yourself. Ia, Ia, Cthulhu fhtagn!

Shhhh!  You'll blow our cover!!!!

The thing of that question is, who was the biggest sinner, the criminal or the person unwilling to forgive the criminal?

That's a good point. 

If heaven is so great, then God has it organized pretty well

Why does everyone always think of heaven as a place where people will hang on to their human forms?  I'm not trying to be snotty, I'm genuinely interested.  Is it because we can't think past what we have now?  Because we're so accustomed to being in human bodies that it's impossible for us to concieve of it being any other way?

My expierence in dealing with these kinds of people over the last twelve years is that they are remarkably like everybody else. I remember being at a car show in a park one summer afternoon and talking to a guy about the cycles on display and a week later found myself booking him in on a murder warrant from California. Funny, but at the time I was talking to him he had aready killed and buried a guy in the dessert and I (like everybody else there that day) didn't know the difference.

If someone screws up in life and doesn't repent here on earth, I *think* *hope* that they are not lost forever

That’s my take on it too. We all have bad qualities in us - it’s just a question of to what degree. Where do we draw the line regarding what’s ‘too bad’ and what’s acceptable? When we consider things like our upbringing, or tragedy in life, or whatever, it makes us wonder what kind of choice we have regarding our degree of ‘badness’ in our feelings and behaviour – anger, judgementalness, controlling, selfishness etc. Even though it may not lead us to murder, or child abuse, I think the ‘line’ is like a sliding scale, and can get a bit fuzzy.

As children, we are taught that there are only two kinds of people in life: good and bad. But I believe that this outlook is too limited, and is the cause of much struggle and unnecessary guilt within ourself.

The spiritual path is an authentic path, and doesn’t call us to be ‘goody-goody’, or artificially perfect. Rather, it calls us to be true to ourself, and to live in grace, which in turn leads to better self-acceptance and inner peace. As long as we adhere to the good / bad principle, like black and white, we will try to hide and bury our bad qualities, or we will lie to ourself. (After all, we're not in the 'bad group', of course!) But this leads to inner turmoil, because by denying our bad side, we deny a part of ourself. We all have a shadow-side, and whenever our ‘badness’ rises to the surface, we become riddled with guilt, or we think that there’s something wrong with us. “I’m such a bad person. I hate myself”. Or “God will punish me for being so sinful”.

Yet as long as we hold to this attitude, we can never find inner peace or harmony, because we can’t make friends with the whole of ourself. Our inner conflict becomes a vicious circle, and we often become self-righteous in an attempt to prove our 'goodness'. In turn, we will have difficulty truly loving others. (The principle to “love one another as yourself” is a divine law, operating all the time. If we haven’t yet accepted our own shadow-side, then instead of accepting others for who they are, we pick holes in them and find fault in them. But in doing so, we are projecting our own faults and weaknesses onto them. As Jesus said, “Take the log out of your own eye, and you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.”)

But through grace, we can learn to accept the whole of ourself, including our shadow-side, and we can see that it really is okay to be imperfect. (St. Paul talks about his inner-struggles, and how he surrenders them to God in Romans 7.14-25). Much of our inner turmoil is self-inflicted, caused by resistance to the depth and breadth of God’s love.

Once we learn to love ourself unconditionally, we can then begin to love others as ourself. I personally agree with the insights from Marianne Williamson: “The Holy Spirit asks that our relationships be used by God to serve His purposes. And His purpose is always that we might learn how to love others more purely. We love purely when we release other people to be who they are. In the holy relationship, we don’t seek to change someone, but rather to see how beautiful they already are. Our prayer therefore becomes ‘Dear God, take the scales from in front of my eyes. Help me to see my brother’s beauty.’ It is our failure to accept people exactly as they are that gives us pain in a relationship. . . . We’re not aligned with the Holy Spirit until people can behave in any way they choose to, and our own inner peace isn’t shaken.”

Apologies for going off on a tangent here, Dharma, and I think I’ve gone round the houses. But I think it’s relevant to your article. I believe that when we get to Heaven, we’ll see everyone for who they are – with no masks and with no false pretences. We’ll see that murderers and paedophiles are really weak, broken, misguided spirits, yearning for compassion and guidance.

We’ll be “comfortable” with them in Heaven, because I believe that we'll see them gravitate to a place in Heaven where healing and learning is available to them. God doesn’t want to punish us, but to heal us. (Just because we get to Heaven, doesn’t necessarily mean that our inner-experience is Heavenly, incidentally.) We won’t necessarily be jostling shoulder to shoulder with these souls.

I’m sure that in Heaven we’ll have a completely different perspective on the issue, and most of our human rivalries, anger, misunderstandings etc. will dissolve like mist dissolves in the sun.

Why does everyone always think of heaven as a place where people will hang on to their human forms? I'm not trying to be snotty, I'm genuinely interested. Is it because we can't think past what we have now? Because we're so accustomed to being in human bodies that it's impossible for us to concieve of it being any other way?

I don't think I'm going to have a body like I have now. I'll have a glorified body. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I think it's like the body Jesus had after He was resurrected. He still retained some of his physical characteristics (people were able to recognize Him), and He told Thomas to go ahead and touch Him (don't know if he did or not)... and yet he was able to walk through closed doors. Maybe that's just cuz He was Jesus, but I tend to think it might be a clue as to what our bodies will be like. I sure hope my glorified body weighs less than the one I have now. *grins*

But through grace, we can learn to accept the whole of ourself, including our shadow-side, and we can see that it really is okay to be imperfect. (St. Paul talks about his inner-struggles, and how he surrenders them to God in Romans 7.14-25). Much of our inner turmoil is self-inflicted, caused by resistance to the depth and breadth of God’s love.

I think it's trying to find a balance between accepting you're not perfect (none of us is) and not using that as a license to go out and do whatever you want. I've seen both extremes, and neither is healthy.

I personally agree with the insights from Marianne Williamson

She sounds like a smart woman

I’m sure that in Heaven we’ll have a completely different perspective on the issue, and most of our human rivalries, anger, misunderstandings etc. will dissolve like mist dissolves in the sun.

I don't think there will be any human rivalries or anger there.