Christianity requires a LOT of things from people that a lot of times are ignored, like not being a pharisee for example. Forgiveness can be a terribly hard thing to accomplish, and I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of Christians holding grudges walking around, unable and probably unwilling to truly forgive someone.

Well they won't go to heaven then. Heaven's not for everyone - it's one of the most exclusive clubs around. I doubt if even 10% of those who get called devout would make it under the rules in the bible. It's not such a bad thing though. There aren't that many angels, and only a few fell. We'll outnumber the bad guys in hell.

once a person is repentant, I can't imagine anything closer to Hell than the knowledge of what you had done

I totally agree with this. I also think that with true repentance, that "full life" of criminal behavior is not something to look back on with fond memories.

Also, I don't think that just because you say "I repent" that you get the get into heaven free card. It seems to me that there is a big gap between recognizing the need to repent hence saying it, and actually feeling the full force of that repentance on the soul. And if anyone knows if a soul is truly repentant I'm guessing it would be God. I also believe that God takes into consideration the attitude of "I'm gonna commit all kinds of evil because I can repent at the last minute and have a clean slate" thing when he calls you up to the carpet.

And for all those evil souls who plan on a life of rape, pillage, murder, hat and crime and plan on using the "repent and get into heaven free card" there are always those karmic sudden accidents that kill you dead before you even have time to form a thought. (not wishing death on anyone but pointing out that such a person can die accidentally without having time to repent... then that person is really on the hot seat.)

sorry double entry

Literature is full of descriptions of hell, but few tales of heaven.

I like to think that there's not a lot out there about it because it's indescribable. But I don't know if that's reality or not.

I believe that the same folks who fuck you up in this life are gonna be there waiting for you in the next one too. Your assignment, if you choose to accept it and live in eternal peace, is to just find a way to deal with it

Much like it is in this life, huh? 

I think this nicely sums up what I believe

I think that's a bloody brilliant bit of writing too!

If you are still the same person the next day, I doubt your repentance would be sincere, and therefore you probably can't lie your way into heaven by way of an omnipotent God.

I don't think that you can either, but.....I've known people who have had a 'jesus' moment and who said they were 'saved' but who were pretty much the same people afterwards....just minus the lying and the drinking and the stealing.

To me, these people are heroes

To you, maybe.  You have a slightly different outlook on things, you're more comtemporary in your faith and your outlook....but to some people sharing eternity with someone who decided to repent at the very last minute is rather distasteful.  Like Marcie said, they feel cheated - they've led what they consider to be a godly life, they've strived for years to do things that please their god to ensure their place in heaven - yet the person who did nothing but harm most of their lives gets an equal place next to them?  Not really fair, is it?

I don't believe in heaven, but if I did I'd say that I agree with your thoughts about what it's like.  I don't think that people retain their human form either.  In fact, what you described is a lot like my belief about what happens to us after we've had our last ride on the reincarnation merry-go-round.  Our souls shake off the meat overcoat we've been wearing for too long and go to join all the other souls who have attained enlightenment - and THAT is where god is. 

Well they won't go to heaven then. Heaven's not for everyone - it's one of the most exclusive clubs around. I doubt if even 10% of those who get called devout would make it under the rules in the bible

Here's the thing though : people think that they can have a mean-spirited heart; they think that they can treat people horribly and be materialistic and sinful,  but as long as they go to church on sundays and know their scripture they'll get in when their time comes. 

I agree with you, btw.

Also, I don't think that just because you say "I repent" that you get the get into heaven free card. It seems to me that there is a big gap between recognizing the need to repent hence saying it, and actually feeling the full force of that repentance on the soul.

Me too.  There's a lot more to repenting that simply saying it because it's what you think you need to do.  However, I do think that there are some people who wholeheartedly repented at the very end of their vicious, spiteful, murder filled lives.  My question was how would people feel about sharing eternity with people like that - we all seem to feel superior to 'those' people, and a lot of christians I know are really quite uncomfortable sharing their eternity with people like that.

 

I do know that Simon attempted to explain His feelings on the topic in a poem He wrote a year or two ago, and I'll share here. (if you don't mind.)

I don't mind at all, and I love that poem.  I'm saving it, if he doesn't mind.

ps- I know you said I had mail on my most recent thread, but I've yet to recieve it. Been having issues with hotmail and msn lately, could ya try gmail? (littlewhip@gmail.com)[/quote] Yeah, I'll send out another one this morning. I like to think that there's not a lot out there about it because it's indescribable. But I don't know if that's reality or not

I think that there's not a lot out there because hell is different things to different people.  One person's hell might be spending forever with people they didn't like in life (rapists and murderers, for instance), whilst another person's hell might be something totally different.

My take, without reading any other responses: That particular person would have to truly repent. Judged before God, they would be weighed and measured. If God says they're good enough for Heaven...

I'm working through a lot of forgiveness issues, forgiving myself, forgiving others that have hurt me deeply. With God's grace, especially in Heaven in His presence, forgiveness is easier. Exhibiting a truly forgiving nature... I think that's part of being a full Christian.

Is that difficult? Gosh, it might be humanly impossible. But that's why I said, "with God's grace," above.

My take, without reading any other responses: That particular person would have to truly repent. Judged before God, they would be weighed and measured. If God says they're good enough for Heaven...

Mine as well.  If God decides, who are we to question him?

Here's the thing though : people think that they can have a mean-spirited heart; they think that they can treat people horribly and be materialistic and sinful, but as long as they go to church on sundays and know their scripture they'll get in when their time comes. I agree with you, btw.

I hope those people are treated in the manner the bible says they deserve, although to be honest the last thing I want to see in my afterlife are the same sanctimonious bastards I disliked whilst I was alive - I like my stuff too much to have much hope of entering a Christian heaven, so I'd be hanging out with the zealots in the fire.

I'm glad you agree though - I wasn't sure before. I'm often amazed by how many people never stop to think about how they're fulfilling or not fulfilling God's laws. It's particularly sad that those who have a pious reputation so rarely are.

If God decides, who are we to question him?

See, now we're getting off subject.  My question was how people would feel about sharing their eternity with some pretty unsavory characters, not about god and his decisions.  I wanted to know how YOU would feel about it, whether you'd like it, felt it was fair or not.  Marcie gave an excellent answer when she said she'd feel a little jipped.

Exhibiting a truly forgiving nature... I think that's part of being a full Christian. Is that difficult? Gosh, it might be humanly impossible. But that's why I said, "with God's grace," above.

'To err is human; to forgive is divine'.

I know a LOT of christians who don't forgive, who carry a grudge.  The word 'pharisee' comes to mind.....

although to be honest the last thing I want to see in my afterlife are the same sanctimonious bastards I disliked whilst I was alive

That's EXACTLY what I'm looking for! IF there is a heaven, and IF it's the way christians describe it....well, I dunno that I want to go there if it's going to be filled with all the people who claim to be christians in the here and now. I don't know that I can handle it....so I think that I, like you, will be warming my ass by the fire with the athiests and psychopaths. That's IF there's a heaven like that, mind you, and it's a mighty BIG 'if'.

I'm glad you agree though - I wasn't sure before. I'm often amazed by how many people never stop to think about how they're fulfilling or not fulfilling God's laws. It's particularly sad that those who have a pious reputation so rarely are.

Yep. The people who wear their christianity on their sleeve, who go about proclaiming their love of such and praying for every person and thing in sight, the ones who call themselves 'god warriors' or members of the 'jesus army'...those are the people who think that they're holy and pious and assured a seat in heaven....when in actuality they're neither holy NOR pious and their seat in heaven isn't a sure thing. The people who go about their faith in a quiet way, who are humble without proclaiming that they're humble......those are the true holy ones, in my opinion.

I have heard Heaven described simply as being united with God. If that is the case, I don't think anyone else has anything to do with it. When I was little, family members described heaven as a place where nothing bad ever happens and all of your family and friends who died before you were waiting for you. I told them at the time (I was about 5) "that sounds boring and weird." That was 30yrs ago and I haven't changed my opinion.

I always wondered, if all of your loved ones will be reunited on the other side, how do people who remarry after a spouse passes away deal with it? Do all of the spouses just coincide in harmony? If so, wouldn't that be boring? If not, who wants to spend 'eternity' like that?

I'm not christian so I don't have much to add to the subject. Just wanted to comment because I find it an interesting thread.

I always wondered, if all of your loved ones will be reunited on the other side, how do people who remarry after a spouse passes away deal with it? Do all of the spouses just coincide in harmony?

That's what I want to know as well.  Because I have an ex and I really don't want anything to do with him, and if heaven is as a lot of christians describe I'll have to deal with him.  Unless he goes to hell, of course...and there's a pretty good chance of that, actually, given some of the things he's done.  I would imagine there must be a great deal of jealousy - but then we're told that there won't be any of that in heaven.  Wow.  Mind-numbingly boring.

When I was little, family members described heaven as a place where nothing bad ever happens and all of your family and friends who died before you were waiting for you.

I was asked to describe heaven in a similar way to a sunday school class of young teens.  I was told that I couldn't tell them that I didn't know what heaven was like because I hadn't been there; I was to tell them that all your relatives that died before you were there waiting for you, that the streets were paved with gold, that there wasn't any unhapiness or want there, and that you could get whatever you wanted, when you wanted.

That was the last sunday school class I taught, and it was the last church service i went to as well.  It had been coming for a long time, but it was just the straw that broke the camel's back.  I couldn't teach what I no longer had faith in, I would be a hypocrite for doing so.

Here's a thought: if christianity is about humility and doesn't put a hugh price on material possessions, why do they go on about the streets being paved with gold in heaven and why are kids told that they can have whatever they want, when they want there?  Isn't that sending a mixed message at the very least, and at the worst isn't that contrary to the teachings of christ and the bible?

You're always welcome to stop by and leave a comment, relevant or not, Jill. 

'To err is human; to forgive is divine'.I know a LOT of christians who don't forgive, who carry a grudge. The word 'pharisee' comes to mind.....

Sure, but I believe that what we're supposed to do is attempt to emulate the divine, not to lift ourselves up to His level, mind you, but this is where the cliche' "What Would Jesus Do?" comes into play.

I'm not going to say that the other Christians you're talking about are or aren't Christian, or even if they're behaving in a Christ-like manner. I WILL freely admit that I have problems forgiving sometimes, and I get angry about actions that don't directly affect me, simply because of the inhuman level of the action (check the news, I'm sure you could find something there that would upset me).

I think the whole attitude is very personal, and that the level of forgiveness that I'm seeking to give will be a very constant struggle for me. But that's okay. For me.

As far as the other things (and I've read the comments since mine, scanning for responses): Once we all appear before God in his glory, a lot of this sort of thing isn't going to be important to us any more. More importantly (if it helps you), the sort of insincere sanctimonious behavior you complain about in others won't be important to them, either. I don't know, man. Heaven is love.

But I'm no expert.

if christianity is about humility and doesn't put a hugh price on material possessions, why do they go on about the streets being paved with gold in heaven and why are kids told that they can have whatever they want, when they want there? Isn't that sending a mixed message at the very least, and at the worst isn't that contrary to the teachings of christ and the bible?

Dharma,

I agree with you. This is exactly why I left the "christian" or as Gideon put it in another thread the "Pauline" church. Our society has too much of an "what's in it for me" type attitude. I don't blame you one bit for leaving.