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Published on February 15, 2006 By dharmagrl In Religion

Here's a question for all the Christians in the house:

How comfortable are you with the thought of sharing heaven with a mass murderer?  A pedophile?  A person who delighted in torturing little children before they beat them to death? 

How comfortable are you with spending eternity with people who rob and rape and kill and pervert and abuse?  With people who were so vile in life that they had to be segregated from the general population and imprisoned for the rest of their lives?  With people who behaved so heinously that they were executed? 

As long as a person repents before they draw their last breath, as long as they truly are sorry for the life they've lived and the kind of things they've done, they are (according to Christianity, anyway) granted forgiveness and eternal life in heaven.  Which means that a person could live a life full of murder and torture and horrors that make even seasoned police officers cry, but as long as they repented before their drew their last breath, they would be assured a place in heaven.  Tookie Williams, for example, could have repented as the drugs that would stop his heart were flowing into his veins....and he could be walking the same heavenly streets as we speak. 

How does that make you feel?  I ask because I'm genuinely interested.  I'm not being facetious and I'm not trying to stir the pot of anti-christianity, I'm really truly interested.

I don't believe in the kind of heaven Christianity is selling.  I don't believe in streets paved with gold where everyone lives in human form and is eternally happy and jolly and glad.  I don't believe in that, so my feelings about sharing that kind of place with serial killers and pedophiles is moot - how can I express an opinion about sharing a place that I don't believe exists? 

I'm very interested to see the different responses people have.


Comments (Page 4)
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on Feb 17, 2006
dharma,

If the person is sincerely repentant (something only God knows and a human can't quantify), I don't feel like I have the ability to judge them. If God feels they have a right to heaven, I have no issues with that.

That being said, I would have to say that I am more than a little skeptical about most "deathbed" confessions, and even some evangelical conversions. Please remember, I came to a saving knowledge of Christ while incarcerated, and while I found several sincere, lasting expressions of faith among my colleagues, I found many more opportunists wanting to either attempt to lighten their sentence, or to gain the favor of the evangelists in hopes of preying on their sympathy for support and/or favors once released. Without personally encountering many of these confessions, I would be willing to wager a fair sum that not a few of them are equally manipulative attempts to curry favor with God in the hopes that they might gain eternal reward. And my view of God is that He is one who can see through that type of subterfuge.

I believe that repentance usually comes about after much introspection and self analysis, not as a spur of the moment, emotional decision.
on Feb 17, 2006
I don't think I'm going to have a body like I have now. I'll have a glorified body. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but I think it's like the body Jesus had after He was resurrected. He still retained some of his physical characteristics (people were able to recognize Him), and He told Thomas to go ahead and touch Him (don't know if he did or not)... and yet he was able to walk through closed doors. Maybe that's just cuz He was Jesus, but I tend to think it might be a clue as to what our bodies will be like. I sure hope my glorified body weighs less than the one I have now. *grins*


I agree with you HC. St. Paul provides us with some good insights in 1 Corinthians: "When buried, it is a physical body; when raised, it will be a spiritual body. ... There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; the beauty that belongs to heavenly bodies is different to the beauty that belongs to earthly bodies." (15.44; 15.40)

I believe that in Heaven we retain our individuality, and even though we leave behind this fleshy garb, in Heaven we will be clothed in a different kind of body – a perfect, glorified one - which I'm sure means that it won't age or get damaged.

I don't think there will be any human rivalries or anger there.


Amen to that HC!

I think it's trying to find a balance between accepting you're not perfect (none of us is) and not using that as a license to go out and do whatever you want. I've seen both extremes, and neither is healthy.


That’s right. I think that once the Holy Spirit is in our heart, we’ll possess an inner compass anyway, which will lead us to seek goodness and positive things naturally, generally speaking. But even if we ‘backslide’, and return to old, negative habits and struggles, then instead of feeling disheartened or guilty, we can take comfort in the truth that we are redeemed by the grace of Christ, who understands our human frailties. We are all allowed to make mistakes, and I believe that God honours our bad choices and mistakes. (This principle is illustrated in Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son). Rather than beating ourself up over our weaknesses or mistakes, we can accept our fallibilities, come to terms with being human, and learn from our experiences. The good news is that Jesus Christ provides us with a life of liberation – i.e. free from guilt and fear.

It's "Good News" ineed, this reality lark.
on Feb 18, 2006
If they truly repent and ask for salvation? Awesome. It sucks that they lived their lives they way that they did, but wishing damnation on them is definitely not the Christian way to go. Don't forgive 'em seven times, but seventy times seven. (paraphrased)

It's not about relative morality anyways. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." That's everybody. You don't go to heaven or hell according to the life you lived. You can't earn salvation, you don't deserve it, it's a gift. Either you're saved or you're not. "If God is for it, who can stand against it?" If he says the honestly repented, I'm not going to argue with Him.

Ever look at who He choose as His tools? The lowest, the weakest, and even (often against their will, like the Pharoah, or Nebuchanezzer) the most wicked.
on Feb 18, 2006
Ever look at who He choose as His tools? The lowest, the weakest, and even (often against their will, like the Pharoah, or Nebuchanezzer) the most wicked.

Great point, spc.
on Feb 19, 2006
I think that you can say with safety and in a non-judgemental way that a person who continues to indulge in a perversion after they have claimed to repent and be 'saved'.....well, that person really isn't 'saved' at all because they're continuing to indulge, you dig? It's not being judgemental, it's just being practical.


I was taught that if a person has the intent to not do something again, they can repent (and only if they have that intent). It's interesting (to me) to note that if they have the intent to stop, but later give into temptation again, that they had repented, until they sinned again in their heart. (If they said they were sorry, but never really gave it up in their heart, they didn't repent.)

I'm certain I explained the above in a way that will only confuse the reader. Sorry. As an aside:

Ia, Ia, Cthulhu fhtagn!


You misspelled Fthagn. Please also see this Link .
on Mar 28, 2006
With palms together,
Hello Dharmagirl,

Most interesting question, if not for the question itself, then for the assumptions within it. If we are all one, as some either believe or have discovered in their practice, then heaven and hell, past present, and future, earth, stars, and all else are one. When this is the case, who is not a murderer, a rapist, a saint, a healer? Where does Man end and God begin? God end and Man begin?

When we recycle garbage, use it as fertilizer, and grow a lovely apple, do we refuse to eat it?

Be well.
on Mar 29, 2006
Forgiveness is the one main principle Jesus showed a lot of when he was on earth. In the bible it is mentioned a lot. If God wants to forgive these people and accept them into heaven then so be it. If they have truly repented, then they will be received by the Lord. I don't like pedophiles, I detest them in fact, but if that individual can change their life and be truly sorry in their heart, and from that point on live the life that will be pleasing unto God, then yes, I will forgive him.

However some might say, oh I'm sorry, but they don't mean it. Just because he said he's sorry when he's on his last breath, doesn't mean that he will be with God. If he is saying he's sorry just to save his skin, it doesn't mean his soul went to heaven.


Just a reminder that not all christians or churches are the same. Some of them are for themselves more than they are for God's work. It's too bad that the actions of some would sway some of you from believing in God. So many claim to be of the Lord and representing him but they're only for themselves.
on Apr 08, 2006
If they were sincerely repentant, which they must be, because just saying "Whoops! My bad, Jesus!" won't cut it, then it wouldn't bother me as much as it would've before. Granted, salvation isn't a license to sin (and I'm not somebody who believes in OSAS (once saved always saved), but people can be forgiven of anything. Paul was killing Christians, and he was forgiven and even became a leader of many of them.
Are to be unforgiving of people who we believe went too far? I'm not sure how it is in other beliefs, but even in beliefs that believe in reincarnation and nirvana, can't people achieve nirvana eventually even if they've been rapists or paedophiles in past lives, or are they forever out of its reach and never forgiven?
on Apr 08, 2006
but even in beliefs that believe in reincarnation and nirvana, can't people achieve nirvana eventually even if they've been rapists or paedophiles in past lives, or are they forever out of its reach and never forgiven?


I think the 'religious pyschology' behind these beliefs is that "everybody 'gets there' eventually", even if it takes an unimaginably long time.
on Apr 10, 2006
I would be comfortable if you were there! I would venture to say that you have probably sinned sometime in your life. Sin is sin. We all deserve eternal death for our rebellion but Christ paid for our sins in full. We have all been declared not guilty if we accept Christ as our Savior. If you try to save yourself, you aren't going to succeed. The gap caused by sin is so great that it took the Son of God to pay the penalty. He did out of love. He loves you. If you can accept that you will be with me in heaven. I would look forward to seeing you. Without guilt or shame after true repentance we have such freedom and joy to serve the Lord out of love. Let God take care of the unrepentant. That is his job, not ours. I hope to see you there!
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