A question for the christian scholars

on Jun 25, 2005

This is a normal means of communicating ideas and the Bible is not somehow an exception to this.

But Christianity proclaims that it ISN'T just a book, or a normal method of communication. It's divine instrument.

If that's what someone chooses to believe how does it harm you or cause you problems in any way?

Hey, if people want to keep their views to themselves, that's cool. However, when we have groups insisting that textbooks on evolution be plastered with stickers proclaiming that the information contained within is 'simply a theory' (which, btw, creationism is too, and there's more evidence to support evolution than creationism), well, then it becomes a problem to me and mine. When I have people telling my children that they are not going to heaven, and they and their parents are destined for hell because we do not believe the same thing they do, it becomes my problem. Sound far-fetched? It's happened, and still does happen.

This all started with my asking for an explanation as to why that particular scripture was written as it is. We're way off track now.

62

dharmagrl

on Jun 25, 2005

Oh, and one more thing: I shouldn't have used the words 'I have issues/problems with'. It would have been better for me to say 'I think it's silly'. I Do think it's silly. Just like I think that atheism is silly...because if you cannot prove something, how can you DISprove it? I also think that there are aspects of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and Taoism that are equally silly. So, it's not just christianity.

63

MasonM

on Jun 25, 2005

But Christianity proclaims that it ISN'T just a book, or a normal method of communication. It's divine instrument.

This doesn't negate the use of symbolism or figurative forms of writing.

Hey, if people want to keep their views to themselves, that's cool.

Consider what you just said here. You are fully free to talk about/write about Buddhism, but Christians shouldn't be free to talk about/write about Christianity? If you really felt that people should keep their views to themselves no-one on JU would know you are a Buddhist, would they? It's called freedom of speech and it applies to all of us equally.

However, when we have groups insisting that textbooks on evolution be plastered with stickers proclaiming that the information contained within is 'simply a theory' (which, btw, creationism is too, and there's more evidence to support evolution than creationism), well, then it becomes a problem to me and mine

While I agree that teaching religion in public schools is not what tax dollars are supposed to be spent on, I also believe that children should be exposed to a wide range of ideas. Creation is not strictly a Christian concept, and has not been absolutely disproven any more than macroevolution has been proven. Microevolution has been observed, there is plenty of evidence for it and it has been effectively proven, but macroevolution has far less evidence and far more conjecture so perhaps it shouldn't be taught either. Realistically, the more senisble idea would be to simply present that some people believe that life evolved from single celled organisms through a process called macroevolution, and other peoples believe that life was created by intelligent design. This can be done without the need to teach any specific religious doctrines and exposes the students to the fact that not everyone in the world believes the same things and neither idea is actually a proven fact. The biggest objection many Christians have is simply that macroevolution is taught as if it is a proven fact, when in reality it isn't.

When I have people telling my children that they are not going to heaven, and they and their parents are destined for hell because we do not believe the same thing they do, it becomes my problem.

I agree that's is bad taste and is not what most Christians would be doing so it's wrong to lump all Christians together based on this. But it does open the door for the parent to teach their children the concepts they themselves believe and that not everyone in the world believes the same things (which the parent should have been doing anyway).

This all started with my asking for an explanation as to why that particular scripture was written as it is. We're way off track now.

I agree, but if you look back at the thread I believe it was your own responses to some answers which started to lead the thread so far off track. But hey, it's your blog.

64

MasonM

on Jun 25, 2005

Oh, and one more thing: I shouldn't have used the words 'I have issues/problems with'. It would have been better for me to say 'I think it's silly'. I Do think it's silly. Just like I think that atheism is silly...because if you cannot prove something, how can you DISprove it? I also think that there are aspects of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam and Taoism that are equally silly. So, it's not just christianity.

While I wouldn't use such an insulting term as silly in reference to people's core beliefs, I understand what you're saying. There are some things with regard to the teachings of both modern Christianity and modern Buddhism that I disagree with as well, but perhaps for different reasons.
It really boils down to people having to make their own choices about what they believe, and none of us has the right to make fun of people's beliefs or to denigrate those beliefs. In my opinion that's just wrong.

65

bakerstreet

on Jun 25, 2005

Only some Christians are literalists. Only some literalists believe that Creationism should be taught in schools. You don't define Buddhism for the people who believe in the vastly complex Buddhist universe, and literalist, creationist Christians don't define Christianity for me. The homogeneous Buddhism you espouse is no more a reality than a homogeneous Christianity or Islam.

The problem is that people can't be satisfied believing what they believe, they have to take issue with other people's beliefs. Now, if Christians are trying to get your schoolboard to adopt some Creationist dogma, then by all means address THOSE Christians. Otherwise, buying in to all the fearmongering threats and warnings that anti-religious types like to propagate only makes you as intolerant as those you deride for being intolerant.

People are often very skeptical when the terrorism threat level is raised. They want proof. Where are these terrorists. When someone says "Christians are taking over the schools", though, it starts a panic. What have these Christians actually accomplished? How many are there? What are their names. Have you met them? Have they attempted something in your area.

Most often the only threat anyone who reads such stuff knows of is carried by anti-religious people. Myrrander and others make out like there is some huge Christian conspiracy because it provokes strong anti-religious feelings in people. That doesn't mean there is any more likelyhood of anything happening, it just means they want to create some sort of infantile front against what they seem to believe is 'destructive' Christianity.

Screw them, frankly. I trust them as much as I trust the color-coded terrorism threat level or the paranoid UN helicopter folks.

66

bakerstreet

on Jun 25, 2005

Again, I would point out that the Amish are quite Literalist. So far to my knowledge they haven't burned anyone, stolen away women to make their wives, or tried to impose their beliefs on anyone.

Deal with people's actions, not their level of literalism. There are as many simply, peaceful Christians as there are simple, peaceful Buddhists. It isn't the dogma that makes people behave otherwise.

67

MasonM

on Jun 25, 2005

I trust them as much as I trust the color-coded terrorism threat level or the paranoid UN helicopter folks.

I was with ya right up to this point. Those black helicopters are for real, man!

68

Chakgogka

on Jun 25, 2005

It seems that religion abounds in paradox, which is probably why the author of the Tao Te Ching wrote: "The Way that can be described (in words)is not the eternal Way. The name that can be spoken is not the eternal Name."

On the one hand, the problems of taking every word of the Bible as perfect, literally true and utterly unchangeable are clear enough and have been well expressed above. On the other hand, Marcie's answers ask a really good question: if it's not the perfect word of God, then what use is it at all?

Personally I don't see how the Bible can be read as anything but 'symbolic' language, which implies that the Literalists are probably mistaken in insisting on, for example, "six days of creation, i.e. six 24 hour periods". On the other hand, if the Literalists are the ones really living the Bible, rather than just reading it, then that, in a way, makes them the 'experts'. Another paradox.

So many problems come about because our human brains, trained in certain forms of logic, cannot accept paradox, that a thing can be true and false and that we can be right and wrong at the same time on an issue. Paradox offends us so much that sometimes we will do monstrous things just to establish a bit of 'clarity'.

The Lankavatara Sutra says it best for me, "Things are not as they seem; neither are they otherwise".

69

MasonM

on Jun 25, 2005

#69 by Chakgogka
Saturday, June 25, 2005

Some excellent points. I have always felt that if we could truly understand God, He wouldn't be God.
And yes, as much as the human mind despises a paradox, I believe paradox to be far more the norm in the true nature of the universe than we would like to believe. I think that's one reason we have such a difficult time, as human beings, truly understanding the universe.
Modern science has begun discovering certain paradoxes, such as particles that appear to move backward in time among others. I believe the universe is far more complex and there is far more to it than we perceive. Much of it defies logic, which can be maddening.
The more we discover, the less we understand. For all of our advances, we really don't know nearly as much as we would like to think we do. I suspect that if humans are still here in another 1000 years they'll probably be having a good laugh at some of what our culture currently accepts as scientific fact.

70

MarcieMoo

on Jun 25, 2005

Because it's not just Christ's message of love, tolerance and compassion that they're spreading. They tell people what they should and should not read, what they should and should not tolerate...people feel dictated to. Not to mention the 'I'm going to heaven and you're not because you aint been born again' aspect.

lol...you hit the nail on the head, Karen.

I go to church nearly every Sunday. Bully for me, right? I believe that the only way to go to Heaven is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He died to forgive my wrongs.

BUT...when I go to church, I don't want to hear hellfire and brimstone, either. If I'm talking to someone of my same faith, I don't want to hear it from them either. I *KNOW* when I've done something that goes against what God wants me to do, you know? ANd I know I have to make those things right...like...for instance: A few weeks ago I went to the store and when I checked out I did the self-checkout thing. I was kind of in a hurry and my purse had gotten on top of one of those little $1 meat marinade packets and I didn't pay for it. I was too lazy to go back in, get in line, and swipe my card again for it, so I just took it home. And it's been driving me NUTS that I haven't paid for it yet. I know it's just a dollar, and I know the store doesn't really even care...but *I* do...and I know that God would want me to make the situation right so I can get on with life.

If I'm Christian, and my job is to help other people become Christians (because God says to), telling them "Hey...you. Are you a Christian? No? You're going to hell! You'd better get right with Jesus!" isn't the way to do it. Building a relationship and a friendship and genuinely caring for people is the way to show them Christs love. Praying for people. I know the hellfire and brimstone is there...but I don't want to be berated when I go to church. I want to be gently corrected and have the opportunity to make my sin right before God and I also want my Christian brothers and sisters to be willing to help out if I'm up against some kind of sin that I have a hard time overcoming.

Please just keep in mind that all Christians aren't like that....not all of us walk up and down the street handing out tracts that are just going to be thrown away or strike up hellfire and brimstone conversations with people to frighten them to faith. I know that's how it seems sometimes. There are lots of people out there with the wrong motives when it comes to faith: self-glorification, pride, money, etc., etc. I think it's really sad, but it's also a reality of life.

71

MasonM

on Jun 25, 2005

If I'm Christian, and my job is to help other people become Christians (because God says to), telling them "Hey...you. Are you a Christian? No? You're going to hell! You'd better get right with Jesus!" isn't the way to do it

You're correct. you should preach the gospel always and if all else fails, use words. (St. Francis of Assisi)

The best testament is not words, but with how you live your life and how you interact with those you meet.

72

kingbee

on Jun 25, 2005

When someone says "Christians are taking over the schools", though, it starts a panic.

if there was a comprehensive searchable list of all the articles posted on ju for the past 12 months, i wonder whether we'd find an even number of hysterical 'aclu/others kick christ off the continent' and 'pat robertson sworn in as new supreme court justice' type articles or if there were significantly more of one than the other?

73

Ionolast

on Jun 25, 2005

Please just keep in mind that all Christians aren't like that....not all of us walk up and down the street handing out tracts that are just going to be thrown away or strike up hellfire and brimstone conversations with people to frighten them to faith.

What other religion has members who are judgemental and condeming of non-believers and nutcase street preachers and con-artist televangelists? All because they believe that their religion is the only correct one.

74

Chakgogka

on Jun 25, 2005

What other religion has members who are judgemental and condeming of non-believers...

To be fair, pretty much all of the world's religions. I think it IS unfair to pick on the Christians, even though it must be obvious that I'm not a Christian myself. The reason why some of us in the West get so het up about Christianity is that it's the religion that most of us have had the most experience with.

I've personally been more attracted to Buddhism, because of its apparently greater tolerance, but that interest has survived moving to Asia and discovering that there are some downright nasty Buddhist fundamentalists, like the monk in Sri Lanka who was recently on hunger strike protesting that Tsunami relief money is being shared with the (non-Buddhist) Tamils.

For me the important difference is a philosophical difference. Christianity, is a creed - and what you believe matters; some would say it makes the difference between heaven and hell. In some ways I feel that this is an in-built intolerance generator.

Most Buddhist schools (there are exceptions) are essentially sceptical of the power of 'belief' to deliver. Instead individuals are invited to listen to a practical teaching and then try and test it out, only giving credence to it if it seems to work.

This is, of course, a bit of a simplification. Millions of Asian Buddhist layfolk do practise their faith as a belief system - and many Christians would argue that they do 'try and test out' their life of faith and prayer, and that it 'works' for them.

Whatever. Best to remember that 'empty vessels make the most noise'. Scandalous behaviour makes the headlines. Millions of ordinary people leading quiet, ordinary decent lives using religion as a personal moral compass and trying to grow in tolerance, compassion and love will never be 'breaking news'...

75

MasonM

on Jun 26, 2005

Whatever. Best to remember that 'empty vessels make the most noise'. Scandalous behaviour makes the headlines. Millions of ordinary people leading quiet, ordinary decent lives using religion as a personal moral compass and trying to grow in tolerance, compassion and love will never be 'breaking news'...

Well said. Some folks tend to forget that many Christians go about our lives quietly and are very tolerant of the beliefs of others. Most religions believe theirs is the "true" one, that is the very nature of religious belief. That does not mean that we can't understand that others hold beliefs different from our own and respect those beliefs. Personally I am fascinated by the belief systems of others and try to learn as much about them as I can. I've discovered that doing so tends to highlight the similarities much more than the differences.
What I am personally intolerant of is people of any belief system who feel a need to bash the core beliefs of others. That is intolerance at it's worst and is hardly indictive of an intelligent and tolerant person although many who do this claim to be exactly that.