So, Gen Taguba testified today that, in his opinion, the abuse happened because of a lack of adequate training, leadership and supervision.

Like kids in a candy store, these untrained 'weekend warriors' were let loose in Abu Ghraib. 

I'm also glad to hear that Brig Gen Janis Karpinski has been reprimanded and suspended.

But still, the bottom line is that Lynndie is responsible for her own actions.  She was dumb enough to do it, and showed such an astounding lack of judgement when she posed for those pictures..and she's going to have to accept and deal with the consequences of doing so.

I saw an interview with one of the soldier's parents.  I don't remember which one, sorry.  Anyway, the father said that in the military you are trained to take orders and that failure to do so could result in a court martial.  I honestly wanted to yell at my tv.  That's what they are facing now -- a court martial.  Seems to be that the court martial for falling to take those orders would be significantly less painful (this is all under the assumption that someone gave orders, which Taguba said he found no evidence of).

On a slightly unrelated point:  I was watching General Taguba testify.  Senator Graham (R-SC) and he had an exchange that went something like this (I can't find the transcript and I hope I am not butchering it too much).

Senator Graham (SG):  General Taguba, we now have Saddam in custody, yes?
General Taguba (GT):  Yes, sir.
SG: Given the opportunity would you want to send a pack of wild dogs after Saddam?
GT: (pause) Saddam, Sir?
SG: Yes, General
GT:  No Sir, we have to abide by international law no matter how much we dislike him. 
SG: And that General is what makes the US military different from those we are fighting, that is what sets us apart, and that is why we are in Iraq. 

I'm not sure it plays well in the written word...but watching it live, it was intense

Anyway, the father said that in the military you are trained to take orders and that failure to do so could result in a court martial.

I want to yell at the TV as well.  The passing of blame and assumptions by people who've never been in the military and don't know how the system works makes me want to scream and start banging people's heads together to knock some sense into them! ARRGGGHHHH!!!!!!

...btw,obeying what you know to be an unlawful order makes you as culpable as the person giving the order. (information courtesy of Dave...thanks, babe!)

I just read this on MSNBC and had to throw it into this thread...

....the anti-Jessica Lynch who, by coincidence, grew up in another small town in a different part of the same state. And until last week, Ft. Ashby, W.Va., was equally proud of England, who had bagged groceries and worked in a chicken plant before joining the Reserves to earn money for college. (Her dream, reportedly, was to become a storm-chasing meteorologist.) Her parents fled the onslaught of reporters, but at a press conference her best friend, Destiny Goin, described England as "a caring person" who adopted a stray cat in Iraq. She was also, at 21, divorced after a two-year marriage to a high-school boyfriend, and four months pregnant by another soldier who has been charged in the case, Cpl. Charles Graner Jr. England's lawyer acknowledged a "relationship" with Graner but, under questioning, refused to call it a romance--and reminded reporters that Graner was her supervisor. England's sister, Jessica Klinestiver, insists that in her guard work she "was following orders, and that's what people in the military are supposed to do."

"That's that people in the military are supposed to do".  When is personal accountability and responsibility for one's own actions going to come into play?

Put this trailer park trash where she belongs, in prison. She does not know the difference between just and unjust orders, what is she doing in the military? if the "higher up" authorities told her to jump off a bridge, would she do it? If a higher up authority told her to poison a man to death would she do it? was the "higher up" authority holding a gun to her head and telling her to pose? were her supervisors threathing to kill her if she didn't smile in the photos? It doesn't take a phd degree holder to figure out what's going on here. who is she trying to manipulate? only a fool would buy her story.

Thanks for the comment, Caleb.  You make a good point about the 'just' and 'unjust' orders. I'm still trying to determine if personnel are informed about those as part of their basic training...if they are, that kind of blows Lynndie's defense out of the water, doesn't it?

I was talking to my mum about her this morning.  Mum said that Lynndie's interview was broadcast on national televison the previous evening...

"Is there something wrong with that girl, Dharma?  She seems to be a few sandwiches short of a picnic.  How on earth did they let her in the Army?  Or do they have a special regiment for retarded people?"

"Yes, mum"  I said.  "It's called Abu Ghraib"

I am a native West Virginian, and personally I find a lot of the redneck, trailer trash comments rather offensive. They do nothing to address the issue, which is what in the world were these members of our military thinking? How was something like this allowed to happen in the first place, much less continue? All of these abusers were not from our beautiful state, and most of us here do not approve of nor excuse in any way the actions of Ms. England. It is disgusting that her family even attempted to defend her actions. We welcomed Jessica Lynch home because she was honest, did not consider herself a hero, and in all honesty behaved in an admirable manner. I suspect Ms. England on the other hand will not be so welcome, should she ever return home. She has disgraced more than just our state. She and her friends have disgraced our nation. We are not animals. We do not do these things. Or do we? To put it nicely, bad stuff rolls downhill. Yes, punish the abusers, but let's find out who allowed it, encouraged it, or overlooked it, and make them accountable as well.

to Michelle
I apologize for the trailer park comment. I actually didn't even know where she lived, until I read in a newspaper and that exact word was used to describe her. But no, all people who live in trailers are not bad, there are good people in W. Virginia.
I believe her actions should not be condoned, but should be punished strictly, just as we punish criminials. because that is what she is. Because if we soften up with her, this is the message we send to our nation and to the international community: "It's ok for American military to humiliate and treat others like dogs on a leash, as long as the "others" are POWs, and as long as she is not doing it inside America. We still want to establish human rights and democracy"
Now how is this possible justified?

It is disgusting that her family even attempted to defend her actions. We welcomed Jessica Lynch home because she was honest, did not consider herself a hero, and in all honesty behaved in an admirable manner. I suspect Ms. England on the other hand will not be so welcome, should she ever return home. She has disgraced more than just our state. She and her friends have disgraced our nation. We are not animals. We do not do these things.

Amen to that.

I am, as I said before, so done with hearing "she was only following orders".  I've have even been accused in the past 24 hours of not knowing how the military works because I said that "just following orders" isn't an acceptable excuse.

I too feel I owe you an apology if my 'trailer-trash' comment offended you.  It was merely a phrase used to capture what (I believe) a good majority of Americans think when they see PFC England. 

Let’s hear her out before we convict her in an orgy of vigilantism. We should not behave like a lynch mob of villagers marching on the Frankenstein residence with torches. There are courts of law. She has rights; I think they call it due process. The left lecture me about the terrible childhood of the criminal; therefore, I must embrace the criminal. I must feel sorry for the criminal, advocate life sentences for the criminal. The criminal has rights, according to the left.

Sure, she has rights, under both civil and military law.

I'm waiting to hear what she has to say.  I'd love to understand why she did it.  I want to know what her defense is. If she was "just following orders" then,  under LoAc (Law of Armed Conflict) she's in violation of (I believe this is the right article, I'll have to go look it up again to be 100% sure) Article 92 of the UCMJ.  She obeyed an unlawful order, knowing that it was unlawful, that makes her just as culpable as the person issuing the order.

The fact that there is photographic evidence of her having sex with numerous partners really doesn't do much to help her cause.  Or perhaps she was "just following orders" when she did that too?

At the very least, the command in Iraq is guilty of poor training. In the first place, why would National Guard types be trusted to such an internationally sensitive mission? In the second place, ignorance of lawful and unlawful orders is no defense in a criminal case. In the third place, if she and others didn't know about the Geneva Convention or lawful and unlawful orders, why weren't they properly trained? Or circling back to the first point, why weren't trained personnel put in there?
I'm a Vietnam-era Army vet who heard stories of atrocities that would make heads swim even for those accused in Iraq. If we think this is an isolated incident, we are fooling ourselves.

Yes, the existing videtape of her enjoying consensual sex with multiple partners in front of the prisoners is what blows the whole "I was oredered to do it" argument out of the water. I don't think therew was any supervision there. The Congressman who have talked about the pictures and videos we have not seen said that it appeared that there was an inordinate amount of nudity among the military personnel. It's just sad.

According to Clinton, it's just sex... it can't interfere with anybodys ability to lead.

In the first place, why would National Guard types be trusted to such an internationally sensitive mission? In the second place, ignorance of lawful and unlawful orders is no defense in a criminal case. In the third place, if she and others didn't know about the Geneva Convention or lawful and unlawful orders, why weren't they properly trained? Or circling back to the first point, why weren't trained personnel put in there?

I have asked myself the same questions many times..and because I have access to military personnel, I have put the question to some higher-ranking folks.  The general consensus thus far is that it was a cluster-fuck from start to finish. There should have been at least one trained person for every 4 non-trained 'weekend warriors', and by trained they mean corrections trained.  There should have been tighter supervision, both on and off duty, and above all, the freakin' rules should have been enforced...which, had you had trained personnel in there probably would have happened.  Basically, there was no leadership, no supervision, and no training. One senoir ranking commissioned officer told me "What the hell they were thinking having a fucking camera in there I just don't know"

I think that statement just about says it all.