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Published on December 13, 2005 By dharmagrl In Current Events

There seem to be two distinct camps arguing over Stanley 'Tookie' Williams' execution early this morning.  One side seems to be saying that he was innocent AND a changed man, that he had led an exemplary life inside prison and had spoken out against gang violence.  The other side says that he had a price to pay, regardless of how much good he had done.

I decided to go search for Tookie's prison record myself, and I was shocked at what I found.  For example:  he spent 6 YEARS in solitary confinement because of his gang involvment that CONTINUED AFTER he was incarcerated.  I wasn't aware of that until this afternoon.  I also wasn't aware of any of the following:

On June 30, 1981, just two months after being sentenced, Williams was involved in a violent fight with another inmate. Williams was observed kneeling over the other inmate and striking him in the head with his closed fists.  When Williams was ordered to cease fighting, he ignored the order. Only after repeated orders to stop, did Williams stop his violence.

On January 26, 1982, Williams was ordered to lineup for his return to his cell. Williams refused the order and became hostile. The guard then explained the line-up procedure to Williams. Williams responded by saying "you'll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do…one of these days I'll trick you boy."

On January 28, 1982, Williams had two separate instances where he threw chemical substances at guards. In one of these instances, Williams threw a chemical substance in the eyes and on the face of a guard. As a result of that assault, the guard suffered from chemical burns to these areas and had to be taken to the hospital where he received emergency care.

On January 29, 1982, Williams again attacked a guard by throwing a chemical substance on him.

On February 16, 1984, a guard saw Williams bending over another inmate and striking him with his closed fists. In an effort to stop the attack, the guard blew his whistle and drew his weapon. Williams, however, continued to fight. Only after a guard fired a warning shot, did Williams stop fighting.

On June 8, 1984, Williams was observed participating in inappropriate behavior with a female visitor. When the guard advised the female of the prison policies, Williams became verbally hostile and stated, "you are looking around too much and that's not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference." 

On July 4, 1986, Williams stepped between a guard and another inmate and began to beat up the inmate. The guard ordered Williams to stop but Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, after gun officers responded, Williams stopped the attack. 

On October 10, 1988, Williams was involved in a fight that led to him being stabbed. Prison officials subsequently learned that this stabbing was done in retaliation for a September 22, 1988, stabbing of another inmate ordered by Crips leader Stanley Williams.

On October 19, 1988, Williams was placed in Administrative Segregation based on his association with the Crips street gang.

On December 24, 1991, Williams was involved in another fight with an inmate. Once again, despite being ordered to stop, Williams continued with the assault. Eventually, gun officers responded by firing a round near Williams. After the shot was fired, guards gained control over Williams.

 

On July 6, 1993, a large fight broke out in the shower area. Williams was one of the combatants. A guard ordered the inmates to stop, but the fight continued. After a warning shot was fired, the fighting stopped. Subsequently, a stabbing instrument ("shank") made of sharpened plastic was recovered from where the fight had occurred.

Wow.  Just wow.  That's a lot of stuff...and that's IN ADDITION to the 6 years in solitary. 

I know that people can change.  I know that I'm not the same person today that I was 10 years ago.  I'm also not the same person that I was 5 years ago.  But are my changes as drastic as Tookie's?  Nah.  Besides, does it really matter if he was changed or not?  He was found guilty of four muders; he took the lives of four people who hadn't done anything to him.  He didn't kill them in an act of gang warfare, he killed them because they had something that he wanted.  He even laughed about the way one of them died.  That's cold-blooded, to me.  And I honestly don't think that someone so cold-blooded could really change, could change so totally that his former self and former ways were eradicated.  But, as I said, it doesn't matter.  A jury of his peers found him guilty.  His defense team had 20 plus years to come up with new evidence that would prove his innocence.  They failed to do so.  His appeal was rejected by court after court, and even the governor decided, after careful deliberation, that there was no basis for clemency, that the original sentence should stand and that Tookie should finally have to pay the piper.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that the 'Tookie was reformed crowd' and the 'Tookie wasn't a bad guy' camp ought to take a look at all the infractions and disciplinary actions that were taken against him during his prison sentence.  Take a look at them take a look at what he did and what he said, and then tell me that he wasn't a 'bad' dude.

I honestly don't think that you can.

 


Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Dec 13, 2005
That's some crazy stuff. It's hard to imagine that some people are wired like that--to hate and to fight so much. There's so many different ways a person can get to that point. It's scary, really.

Someone I love very much is in federal prison right now for embezzling millions of dollars. It's not a violent crime like Tookie's were, mind you, but still very serious. And I think that prison has allowed him to have life experiences that he needed to have. He's leading Bible studies and helping drug dealers learn to read and get their GED's and such. He plows snow in the winter and takes care of the grounds in the warmer months (last winter he got locked OUT of prison while he was plowing snow...how funny is that?). I think that prison is really going to help him learn to make do, and he's also learning the value of hard work, versus cutting checks to fake places and then cashing them as his own. I'm not proud of what he did...I don't think he is either, obviously. He's "making it right with the house" again, though, and he's learning lots about himself and his fellow man in the process.

I don't see much on Tookie's prison records the last years he was in. For his sake, I honestly hope that he did end association with the Crips and have a change of heart. He had years to think about it, and I really, honestly hope he did. I hope he was remorseful for what he did--although you would think that would necessitate some sort of apology to his victims' families, and I don't think he did that when he had the chance.
on Dec 13, 2005
Hard to change really with that kind of violent behavior in the past.
on Dec 13, 2005
Hard to change really with that kind of violent behavior in the past.


I agree...but there's nothing wrong with hoping, right?
on Dec 14, 2005
Syringe Stanley is where he belongs now, and only Christ is qualified to judge his heart, and the future of his soul.
on Dec 14, 2005
As I said near the end of my own article, the only people who truly support him are those who think "justice is only truly served when the guilty go unpunished". Sorry to quote myself, there.

Tookie is, as PT2K said, where he belongs now. If he'd really reformed, don't you think he'd have been willing to take responsiblity and own up to his crimes in his last minutes, wanting to leave the way he came in, with a clean slate? Or as clean a slate as possible, at least.
No....Tookie wasn't reformed; he was just getting older, if not wiser. Kind of dangerous for someone who's getting on in years to get involved in gang fights and such, right? Especially when he's in a closed environment like prison.

The old lion may still have had teeth and claws, but he wasn't as nimble anymore.
on Dec 14, 2005
We all have heard about he children's books he 'wrote' (actually, someone else did and used his name - with his permission).  What I found out is that the first one, only sold 330 copies, and the second only 2.  Hardly a way to influence thousands of yong lives.  I think Gideon said it best.  Tookie's defense may have been competant, but his supporters were grossly incompentant.  But given what you have dug up here, perhaps they really did do the best they could with the lies they were feeding the public.
on Dec 14, 2005

For his sake, I honestly hope that he did end association with the Crips and have a change of heart.

I don't think that he did.  What's the first thing you think of when you say 'Tookie Williams'?  The first thing that comes to my mind is 'The Crips'.  He may have had his name attached to some books denouncing gang violence, but I don't recall him ever making a statement saying 'I'm done with the Crips.  I'm outta the gang'.   So, I don't believe he really ever did end his association with the gang.

I hope he was remorseful for what he did--although you would think that would necessitate some sort of apology to his victims' families, and I don't think he did that when he had the chance.

He NEVER apologized for killing those people.  Not once did he say 'I'm sorry, it was a horrible thing for me to have done, please forgive me.'  He never acknowledged responsibility for thier deaths.  Never.  So, I honestly don't think he was redeemed.  But, that's not for me to say.  That's between him and his god.

  

Hard to change really with that kind of violent behavior in the past.

I think of it as being similar to alcoholism or addiction.  You can say that you're changed, but....once an addict, always an addict, you're just not partaking.  He was so steeped in violence and gang life that I really don't think he knew any other way.  His prison record says as much.

Syringe Stanley is where he belongs now, and only Christ is qualified to judge his heart, and the future of his soul.

I don't know where he is, but I'd like to think that he's being held accountable for his actions there too.

No....Tookie wasn't reformed; he was just getting older, if not wiser.

Exactly.  Age will force changes upon people - even if the mind wants to partake of it's addiction, the body won't let it.  I also think that he enjoyed basking in the glare of his notoriety and realized that if he were to make a case of redemtion for himself he'd have to cool his behaviour. 

Another thing these doofuses fail to realize is that Tookie never wrote a word of the anti-gang violence children's books that supposedly earned his "redemption." They were ghost written with his name on them in return for a share of the profits.

Heheh...yeah, I loved that the books that are purported to be written by him actually weren't. Yet another spin attempt on his behalf.

What I found out is that the first one, only sold 330 copies, and the second only 2. Hardly a way to influence thousands of yong lives.

Again, a spin.  Let's say that he wrote and sold books about gangs and how horrid they are.  We won't mention that he didn't actually write them, and we also won't say that very few people bought them...those things don't matter.  All that matters is that he had his name attached to some books, and that some people bought those books.

It's all hype.

on Dec 14, 2005
It's all hype.


It was all hype, now it's hypodermic. ;~D
on Dec 14, 2005
It was all hype, now it's hypodermic. ;~D


Even though I agree, that one made me cringe a little.

I am in the camp of 'don't really care if you've changed'. Nothing will change what he did or convince the families of his victims that he wouldn't do it again if he had the chance. I think lethal injection is getting off easy for what he did. I am a true 'do onto others as you would have done to you' person.
on Dec 14, 2005

 

I am in the camp of 'don't really care if you've changed'.

As am I.  There's no sych thing as a free lunch; everything we do has consequences.  He involved himself in the taking of another person's life, and there are legal penalties for doing that.  Those penalties don't go away simply because he 'changed'.

Nothing will change what he did

Exactly. 


It was all hype, now it's hypodermic

Man, that's a groaner, Ted-a-rooni!

on Dec 14, 2005
I don't think that he did. What's the first thing you think of when you say 'Tookie Williams'? The first thing that comes to my mind is 'The Crips'. He may have had his name attached to some books denouncing gang violence, but I don't recall him ever making a statement saying 'I'm done with the Crips. I'm outta the gang'. So, I don't believe he really ever did end his association with the gang.


It kinda makes you wonder what's going on with these young people involved with the Crips now. Are they "worshipping" this man--making him a martyr? I dunno. It's sad stuff all around I guess.
on Dec 14, 2005
I agree...but there's nothing wrong with hoping, right?


Clemency must never be granted on the basis of a "hope", but rather on FACT.
on Dec 14, 2005
Clemency must never be granted on the basis of a "hope", but rather on FACT.


I said nothing about clemency. In fact, I've said that the punishment was just in this case. I was hoping that he really HAD changed personally before his just sentence was carried out.

In fact, if you read dharma's article again, she never once mentioned clemency, nor have I, or anyone else, in any response here.
on Dec 14, 2005

It kinda makes you wonder what's going on with these young people involved with the Crips now. Are they "worshipping" this man--making him a martyr?

Yeah, I had wondered what executing him would do....I'm afraid that instead of them seeing it as a deterrent, they'll see it as Tookie giving his life for his gang and make him to a martyr.

As for clemency - the only time I mentioned it was when I said that Ah-nold had denied it.  So, Gid, I'm gonna have to raise the BS flag on that comment.  I didn't get the same meaning as you did from Marcie's comment, and I don't think that's what she meant when she said 'nothing wrong with hoping'.

on Dec 14, 2005
Ah-nold


Hehe...my students love when I do the math lesson in my Ah-nold voice.
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