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Published on November 28, 2005 By dharmagrl In Misc

With the execution of Stanley 'Tookie' Williams pending there's been a lot of talk about the death penalty in modern America.

From what I can see, there are three distinct opinions regarding the execution of criminals.

First, you have what I like to call the 'kill 'em all and let god sort them out' camp.  People who think that if a person has been through the judicial system and had been found guilty, that's a good enough indicator of guilt and the execution should go ahead. 

Secondly, there are the folks who are anti-death penalty at all costs.  Nobody, regardless of admissions of guilt, confessions, or hard evidence should be executed.  'execution isn't going to bring anyone back' is their war cry.

Lastly, you have people like me.  People who believe that there are people in this country who are so devoid of compassion for their fellow man or morality in general that they will do some horrible, horrible things to other people.  People who believe that IF there is a confession, an admission of guilt, or hard (ie DNA) evidence, then an execution should certainly take place.  If however, the conviction is based on circumstantial or eyewitness evidence alone.....well, there aren't any 'do-over's' with death.  There is no pardon, no commutation of that sentence.  It's final.  And we are, as yet, fallible.  We make mistakes.  We get things wrong, we screw stuff up.  We lie and we fabricate...and until we can be  INfallible, there are some cases where we SHOULDN'T sentence people to death.

I've spent enough time working in and being exposed to various branches of the judicial system to know that if you believed the words of criminals and convicts American jails are FULL of innocent people. However, I take most of those words with a grain of salt.  I KNOW this not to be true, because I've played small roles in convicting some people.  I've sat with a case file fresh in my mind, with photographic and DNA evidence swimming around in my frontal lobe, and I've witnessed a man try and persuade a judge that it really WASN'T him who raped that girl, that it was his buddy and that he just happened to be there - an innocent bystander, in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So, I've seen the way criminals will try and manipulate the system.  I've seen them deny, deny, deny.  Deny it all and make society PROVE what you did - and then STILL deny it, regardless of all the evidence.

However, I also know that there ARE innocent people.  People whose only crime was having a visage that reminded a witness of what they'd seen go down, who couldn't produce a solid alibi for their whereabouts at the time of the crime, and whose blood type or hair just happened to be 'microscopically similar' to that of the true offender.  I know that there are 'expert' witnesses who have been discredited after the trial, who have taken bribes and who have lied on the stand.  I know too that there are cops who are so set on convicting one person that they will bribe witnesses and lead them to believe they saw something slightly different than what they actually recall.  $50 is a big deal when you're broke and have kids to feed, y'all.  It only takes one name-drop from a cop...and the witness picks up on that and starts calling the person they saw by that name, and before you know it you've got yourself a written statement and a warrant for some poor sap's arrest.

As I say, though, there are time when the death penalty is entirely appropriate.  Like in this case:Link

Willie J. 'Flip' Williams shot four people in the head in cold blood.  Why?  Because he wanted control of the drug trade in his neighborhood.  He'd already served time for possesion with intent and distribution, and when he got out of jail, he wanted control back.  He even had the balls to go to the local PD and ask them who the major players were in the drug scene in his 'hood.  Yep, fresh out of jail this fucking thug brazenly goes and asks the cops who all his soon-to-be rivals are, so's he knows who he needs to eliminate to regain control.  And when he finds them, he recruits juveniles to help him round them up, and he calmly shoots each one of his percieved 'enemies' in the head.

He even broke out of prison to try and execute his juvenile accomplices after he head they were co-operating with with police.

He never once said he was sorry for what he did.  Even as he was on the gurney in the death chamber, he never expressed any remorse or asked for forgiveness.  He said "I'm not going to waste no time talking about my lifestyle, my case, my punishment. Y'all stick together. Don't worry about me. I'm OK".....and then the State of Ohio stopped his blackened heart with a lethal combination of sodim pentothal,  pancuromium bromide and potassium chloride. 

THAT'S the kind of person who completely deserved to get the death penalty. 

Until we are infallible, unless we are certain of a person's guilt.......we shouldn't execute anyone.  We shouldn't do anything that we can't take back, if you will, if we are proven to be wrong at a later date.

Just my 2 cent's worth.


Comments
on Nov 28, 2005
I don't know more about any case than the actual jury.

They are the ones who, through the responsibility of their position, have examined every nook and cranny of a case. At least what the lawyers/judiciary let them see...

And even then, after a rare guilty verdict and an even rarer death sentence, the case is reviewed ad nauseam by appellate courts and even the supreme court of the state. They are the final judges to see a death sentence to approve or deny its validity and/or appropriateness.

Then if the supreme court does not overturn the death sentence, the case can then be further scrutinized in order to find any minor problem or hiccup or "his lawyer's tie didn't match his socks" objection. Then it can go back to the appellate courts and then to the supreme court all over again. Many many times.

If, at that point, the death sentence still applies, then by golly, that boy is gonna die. Unless an elected governor decides to overturn ("commute") the sentence.

And that's at the point we're at. But as far as I'm concerned, the finest legal minds have already examined the case. Unless Arnold caves, Tookie is gonna die. And it will be deserve. Umpteen juries and judges over the past double-digit years have said so.
on Nov 28, 2005
Very well written, Dharma.

I personally do not believe in the death penalty. I also do not believe that they should commute his sentence unless they are going to commute the sentence of every other murderer on death row. I don't think because he is the cause "celeb" of the moment that he is special and deserves special consideration.

Tookie is not the victim. The people he killed are the victims. They didn't make a choice that put them in a body bag. Tookie made that choice when he chose to be a murdering gangsta.

I do believe in redemption but that will be between him and his maker.
on Nov 28, 2005
First, you have what I like to call the 'kill 'em all and let god sort them out' camp.


Yep, it's a little more complex than that, but basically the category I fall into.
on Nov 29, 2005
I don't care too much, I guess I'm in the the third camp.

But I think the shock value of the death penalty has worn off. In the old days, you got to watch as the criminal convulsed on the end of a length of rope, eyes and tongue bugging out. It put the fear of God into people, and served as a deterent as well as eliminating the particularly nasty criminals.

These days, they take damn good care of you, give you a nice last meal, and give you a relatively painless death.

Bread and water, leaky old dungeon, and something very nasty and painful for the execution. I'm thinking explosive decompression. And then bury the cur in an unmarked grave, since mounting his corpse on a pike outside the city walls isn't an option anymore.
on Nov 29, 2005
Dharma, thanks, once again, for writing a well-written, well thought out article. Cheers!
on Nov 29, 2005
Excellent reasoning! And I agree with your thrust.
on Nov 29, 2005
But I think the shock value of the death penalty has worn off. In the old days, you got to watch as the criminal convulsed on the end of a length of rope, eyes and tongue bugging out. It put the fear of God into people, and served as a deterent as well as eliminating the particularly nasty criminals.


I dunno, I don't think it was that effective. They seemed to put a lot of people to death without ever actually making much of a dent in crime. The fear of God just isn't scary enough.
on Nov 29, 2005
I am for capital punishment, but not as a blanket "one size fits all" option for violent criminals. I guess I fall into the third camp.

That being said, our infallibility works both ways. If our courts find a person not guilty, and the person goes out and kills again, we can't exactly take back that either... but would we want to do away with the Constitutional guarentee of "no double jeopardy" because mistakes are made?
on Nov 29, 2005
Excellent article Dharma. I agree with you 100%
on Nov 29, 2005

Very good article.  Seems 05 is going to be a banner year, outside of Texas for the Death Penalty.

I do have a question.  If he had expressed remorse, and said he was sorry, would that have changed your view at all?

on Nov 29, 2005
Just another person agreeing with you dharma. I believe in the death sentence with such cases because I am not concerned with trying to rehabilitate such monsters. I don't believe it is possible and don't want to risk innocent lives trying. In such cases I am only concerned with removing such a risk from our society. The only way to guarantee that (since he obviously will attempt to break out and might successfully kill again) is to put him to death.
on Nov 29, 2005

And even then, after a rare guilty verdict and an even rarer death sentence, the case is reviewed ad nauseam by appellate courts and even the supreme court of the state. They are the final judges to see a death sentence to approve or deny its validity and/or appropriateness.

Then if the supreme court does not overturn the death sentence, the case can then be further scrutinized in order to find any minor problem or hiccup or "his lawyer's tie didn't match his socks" objection. Then it can go back to the appellate courts and then to the supreme court all over again. Many many times.

Perhaps I should clarify a little...I'm all for Tookie being executed.  He owes society a debt, and he should have to pay it.

I'm very well aware of all the writs and appeals that can be filed on a condemned person's behalf.  The thing is, as you said, there is sometimes evidence that's supressed...and more than that, there's sometimes evidence that's fabriacted or embellished. 

Like I said, there are times when I believe that the death penalty is entirely appropriate.  Just not ALL the time.

I do believe in redemption but that will be between him and his maker

Yep.  I think that 'Flip' probably had a hard time with his.

Yep, it's a little more complex than that, but basically the category I fall into

Okay....can you explain why?

 

These days, they take damn good care of you, give you a nice last meal, and give you a relatively painless death

I know, and that aggrivates me too.  We're supporting the cost of living for some of the worst people society has to offer, and as deaths go...their's is pretty pleasant, really.

 

Dharma, thanks, once again, for writing a well-written, well thought out article. Cheers!

Thank you!

Excellent reasoning! And I agree with your thrust

Thank you, Steven.

 

The fear of God just isn't scary enough

No, it's not.  Although, the amount of people who go out pleading with their maker for fogivness is really quite astounding.

 

If our courts find a person not guilty, and the person goes out and kills again, we can't exactly take back that either... but would we want to do away with the Constitutional guarentee of "no double jeopardy" because mistakes are made?

That happens quite a lot too.  People who are guilty are freed on a technicality, and they go out and re-offend.  I don't have any answers...if I did I think I'd be nominated for SCOTUS!

According to MM, any of us not in camp # 2 are "no better than homegrown terrorists."

Yeah, I saw that and it made me sad.  At least we're giving these criminals the benefit of a trial.  THAT'S what separates us from the terrorists.

Excellent article Dharma. I agree with you 100%

Thanks!

If he had expressed remorse, and said he was sorry, would that have changed your view at all?

No.  Not in the slightest.   He could have died begging for forgiveness and saying how sorry he was, and I would still think that he would have to die.

on Nov 29, 2005

In such cases I am only concerned with removing such a risk from our society. The only way to guarantee that (since he obviously will attempt to break out and might successfully kill again) is to put him to death.

Exactly.  The thing that people forget is that it's really quite easy to be good in prison, to say that you're 'rehabilitated' in a controlled environment.  It's a different story on the outside where temptation sits on every corner. 

Some people have demonstrated such an astounding lack of compassion or concern for their fellow man that there's  simply no rehabilitating them.

Good to see you, btw!

on Nov 29, 2005

If he had expressed remorse, and said he was sorry, would that have changed your view at all?

No. Not in the slightest. He could have died begging for forgiveness and saying how sorry he was, and I would still think that he would have to die.

Thank you. It was just how you wrote the article that seemed to think we should put him to death for his crimes, and not being sorry for them.

on Nov 29, 2005

It was just how you wrote the article that seemed to think we should put him to death for his crimes, and not being sorry for them.

Yeah, I see that now.  I should have mentioned that even if someone expresses remorse for a crime - and in expressing remorse for it, they're really admitting their guilt and culpability - that they still should be executed.  I mean, they've had YEARS to cool their heels and think about what they did.  And, as I said, it's very easy to consider yourself rehabilitated or changed when you're living in an uber-controlled environment such as a maximum security prison. 

There are always going to be consequences to our actions.  The death penalty is one such consequence.