What if there is more?

on Nov 27, 2005

How did it change things for you? I thought you were Buddhist? If becoming Buddhist, that is a pretty big change from the uncertainty of the validity/completeness of the Bible.

What if the Bible isn't the end of the story?

There is no end of the story... We are the end of the story, we are God's chosen people, to create His history for Him, to teach others about the story.

P.S. I'm back from a long break from JU, and I thank you for all the times you have posted on my blog and helped me. I do not think I properly thanked you before.

2

UBoB

on Nov 27, 2005

There is no end of the story... We are the end of the story, we are God's chosen people, to create His history for Him, to teach others about the story.

Who are the 'We' you are referring to? Is it the Buddhists? Is it the Hindu? Is it the Muslim? Is it the Atheist?

3

dharmagrl

on Nov 27, 2005

We are the end of the story, we are God's chosen people, to create His history for Him, to teach others about the story.

Yeah, but is the bible all there is for you? Do you see that there's more to it than ONE book?

You're welcome, btw.

4

Shovelheat

on Nov 27, 2005

Reminds me of that old Monty Python thing where Moses comes down from the mountain and says "I GIVE YE THESE FIFTEEN.." and drops a stone tablet and breaks it. Then he shrugs and corrects himself and says "I GIVE YE THESE TEN COMMANDMENTS"

I'm kinda glad it stopped where it did. That's all the world needs is more religion...

5

dharmagrl

on Nov 27, 2005

I'm kinda glad it stopped where it did.

I'm not.

I'm not talking about dogma and rules, I'm talking about the nature of the divine and human relationship with the divine.

Christianity sells itself as the be all and end all, and I don't think it is. I think that the dudes that sat on the Council of Nicea were more politically motiviated than they were spiritually motivated, and that they omitted some texts that could potentially change the face of Christianity as we know it. The Gospel of Thomas, for example, has some stuff in it that changes a LOT of things. It doesn't contradict Christianity, it expands and compliments it.

Think of it this way: Christianity is like looking through a keyhole into a room. You can see some stuff, but you don't get the whole picture. Add these other texts to what is contained in the Bible, and it's like opening the door to the room slightly. You see more of what's beyond.......

6

dharmagrl

on Nov 27, 2005

Who are the 'We' you are referring to? Is it the Buddhists? Is it the Hindu? Is it the Muslim? Is it the Atheist?

I think that he means humanity in general. And I still disagree.

7

singrdave

on Nov 27, 2005

Reminds me of that old Monty Python thing where Moses comes down from the mountain and says "I GIVE YE THESE FIFTEEN.." and drops a stone tablet and breaks it. Then he shrugs and corrects himself and says "I GIVE YE THESE TEN COMMANDMENTS".

Before I start, that was Mel Brooks in his "History of the World Part I". Link

Now to the meat of the topic:

What if the Bible isn't the end of the story?
What if there's more to the nature of the divine and man's relationship with such?
What if the Council of Nicea only got it partially right - what if there are other teachings that are just as valid that expand upon the teachings of the Bible?

I know from past conversations that you, dharmagirl, have gone your own way from Christianity from your life experiences. The Eight Fold Middle Way became just as relevant as, if not more than, the Sermon on the Mount. Very interesting and fruitful discussions have been had regarding this so-called Buddhism...

As you know, I am a Mormon. Card carrying member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the one based in Salt Lake City, all that Utah Jazz.

As a Christian, I know that God has not stopped speaking to mankind. Doesn't it stand to reason that God loves us just as much as he did the people alive in Jerusalem and its surroundings back 2000 years ago? Doesn't it also bear out that God wants us to know how to deal with moral issues that have taken new forms in the 21st century?

Well I know that the Bible is the Word of God. I also know that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and that a man can get closer to God by reading both than he can by reading the Bible alone.

So, to answer your question, my fair dharma, I do believe that God continues to speak to man. And it does affect my daily life. And I love the life it gives me.

8

Dr Guy

on Nov 27, 2005

Who says the bible is the end? The bible is the middle. The end has yet to come.

9

TARSIER

on Nov 27, 2005

Who says the bible is the end? The bible is the middle. The end has yet to come.

I dunno if the Bible is the middle, but it surely is not the end.

Who are the 'We' you are referring to? Is it the Buddhists? Is it the Hindu? Is it the Muslim? Is it the Atheist?

I was referring to each and every person that has ever existed and who ever will exist.

Christianity sells itself as the be all and end all, and I don't think it is. I think that the dudes that sat on the Council of Nicea were more politically motiviated than they were spiritually motivated, and that they omitted some texts that could potentially change the face of Christianity as we know it. The Gospel of Thomas, for example, has some stuff in it that changes a LOT of things. It doesn't contradict Christianity, it expands and compliments it.

Think of it this way: Christianity is like looking through a keyhole into a room. You can see some stuff, but you don't get the whole picture. Add these other texts to what is contained in the Bible, and it's like opening the door to the room slightly. You see more of what's beyond.......

Only if you think the Bible is the only thing. Take Catholics for example. As a Catholic, I believe that most of the Bible is symbolic (except for a few passages and areas, such as John Chapter 6). We rely heavily on Sacred Tradition, as well as a little personal interpretation. Yes, a lot of people confuse Catholics with the worst of the "keyhole" denominations with its tradition and pretty stoic structure, however there are a lot of things that cannot be lumped together as "CHRISTIANITY". What type of Buddhist are you? Zen? Maha-Yana? I studied Buddhism a little, and I know there are a lot of different sects. It is unwise, therefore, to say "Buddhists all believe that form is essence and essence is form."

I may have posted ignorantly before, and possibly this post, without knowing your exact meaning, and for that, I am sorry.

Dharma, what are you looking for? Are you just looking for a hole in Christianity's beliefs? Salvation? An understanding of purpose? Or could you explain what in the Bible is lacking for you?

10

UBoB

on Nov 27, 2005

I was referring to each and every person that has ever existed and who ever will exist.

Well, I appreciate the thought, but leave me out. I'm an atheist with my own ideas of the beginning and middle of the story and would prefer to orchestrate my own ending.

11

dharmagrl

on Nov 27, 2005

If I had to bet on the ultimate spiritual resting place for you when your searching days are over and you find yourself on the path which will both comfort and strengthen you for the rest of your life, I'd place my bet on Gnostic Christianity.

Ah, you know me too well, sistah. You're spot on the money. It's a fantastic thing, it really is. There were so many questions that I had, and reading some of The Other Bible and the Gnostic Gospels has answered a lot of them.

Isnt it strange how few Christians (of any denomination) will even aknowledge the fact that huge portions of the Gospels were left out of their precious, "complete" Bible? How many of them have never even heard of the Council of Nicea, much less have any awareness of the decisions that were made there, the types of men who made those decisions, and the political motivations that influenced their choices?

The bible is the middle

Strange, and infuriating as hell. Those guys left stuff out that, had it been included, would have made HUGE differences to the face of christianity. You've read them, so you know...... but I wish that more people would just give them a chance.

So, to answer your question, my fair dharma, I do believe that God continues to speak to man

I think that he spoke a whole lot back then but that some people chose to leave some HUGE parts out. HUGE. I took believe that he still speaks.....but that it's up to us to listen. I also believe that the divine is in each and every one of us...and that ultimately self-knowledge (gnosis) will lead us to god.

It's a fabulous thing, y'all. I'm like a kid in a candy store.

12

MarcieMoo

on Nov 27, 2005

I don't believe the Bible is the end of the story at all.

I don't believe the Bible is "symbolic," either. I don't believe that God wanted His words to be available only to the learned. I think He wanted the Bible to make sense to and be applicable for every kind of person.

I believe that faith is a CHOICE, and that any kind of faith--Christianity, Judaisim, Buddhism, etc., etc., is a CHOICE as well.

I CHOOSE to believe that the Bible was written by men but inspired by God Himself. Some people have never allowed God to work in them or through them, so of course this is a foreign idea to them. It's okay. It's a CHOICE. Has God ever whispered in my ear and "told" me something? No. I believe that He does it every day though. And maybe He has told me something that I just don't understand or that I'm just not open to. I "feel" God. When I read the Bible or pray or worship Him with fellow believers or just get to spend time in His creation. I told Christ I needed him almost two decades ago. He, and the Bible, really made sense to me just ten years ago when I was in 7th grade. How does God feel to me? I get the tingles. When I truly open my heart to Him and let Him see all of me, let Him know how complete I am in Him, I get the tingles...the shivers. I don't know how God "feels" to others. I'll have to ask some other brothers and sisters in faith.

I CHOOSE to believe that the Bible is the way God wants it to be. People have made choices about what's in the Bible and what's not. True. But what kind of God would He be if he let the very thing He speaks through be flawed? He wouldn't be God. He'd be a person just like us if His Word wasn't perfect.

It's a choice. You can choose to believe the things I do, or you can't. Lots of people claim to be "Christian" and every one of those people experience God in a different manner, and take different truths from His word each time they read it. Lots of people claim to be Christian because they've been to church before and think God's okay. The Bible says that's NOT what true Christianity is.

On the other hand, I think that other faiths also have some validity. Do I think they talk about the real God or "gods"? No. But I think they have valid ideas about how to treat other people and how to take care of oneself. Just because *I* don't believe it doesn't make it applicable.

The Bible has lots of things in it that I struggle with. The Bible has standards for me that are really hard to live up to, and I frequently don't. The Bible has some paradoxes in it that are difficult to understand. Lots of "middle ground." There's lots that I don't understand in there. I figure when God wants me to understand something He'll make it clear--or He'll allow a teacher into my life who can challenge me. He's fully done it in the past and I CHOOSE to believe that He can do it again when He wants me to.

My pastor preached an awesome message today about pain and challenges that we face. I'm going to write an article about it later if I have time. It really made sense to me, because I've been there.

13

dharmagrl

on Nov 27, 2005

Dharma, what are you looking for? Are you just looking for a hole in Christianity's beliefs? Salvation? An understanding of purpose? Or could you explain what in the Bible is lacking for you?

I'm looking for god. I'm looking for purpose, for security, for answers to questions that the bible alone can't answer. I already FOUND holes in Christianity, and most of those have been filled by what I discovered in Gnosticism. I found holes in Buddhism too.....and those too have been filled by Gnosticism. It hasn't answered ALL the questions, but i don't want it to. There HAS to be some stuff that you take simply on faith, if that makes sense.

14

Dr Guy

on Nov 27, 2005

There HAS to be some stuff that you take simply on faith, if that makes sense.

There is. And everyone does it who believes. No one can make you believe. Belief is illogical. If you are looking for logic, look to physics. If you are looking to faith, look within you. No one can put it in you. You must place it in yourself.

15

UBoB

on Nov 27, 2005

I'm looking for purpose, for security, for answers to questions that the bible alone can't answer.

When I went looking for these things it was a long and arduous search. I went through a lot of changes that started by being baptized Catholic and ended 30 years later with my embracing atheism. Purpose comes from within. Security comes from within. I finally felt all of this late one evening. I stood outside in my backyard, alone. It was dark. It was quiet. I looked up at the dark sky and saw endless stars and in between them, endless darkness. I felt without purpose. I felt small and insignificant. I felt vulnerable. I wondered what the heck this was all for.

Just then the light on my back porch lit up. The back door opened slowly and my wife poked her head out. She asked me why I was still up, and what was I doing standing out there alone. Then she told me she had a nightmare. It had been bad enough to wake her up in a cold sweat. She said she reached out for me but when I wasn't there started to worry, so she came looking. She said to come in and come to bed. I looked at her. I looked back up at the stars. I smiled. I came to bed. I had found my purpose. I felt secure, because I knew I made her feel secure. The vulnerability was gone. Someone needed me.