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what kind of monsters have we created?
Published on November 16, 2005 By dharmagrl In Misc

When the kids were babies, Dave and I decided that we wanted to raise free thinking, independent children.  We wanted them to NOT go with the flow, to think for themselves, to not be afraid to be different, to challenge the status quo if they felt they had a better plan.

We succeeded....but our plan might have backfired on us.  Everything we want to do, we have to argue our case over.  There is no 'because I said so' in our house.  We have to rationalize and justify everything, because they're always challenging us.  They do it respectfully, they never forget that they are the children and we are the parents...but still we have to respond to their challenges.

They're currently challenging the staus quo regarding fashion.  Shea has always had punk tendencies, but lately she's really been experimenting with different looks.  She took my red converse a while back and made them her own, and she pestered me to buy her a pair of black pants with zippers all over them and plaid inlays.  As it happens I found the exact same pair for $3 at the thrift store, so she got her pants.  She's put holes in all her jeans, has a penchant for black nail polish and, if the school would let her she'd wear black eyeliner every day.

I don't mind.  I fully support her expressing her individuality.

But now her brothers want in on the action.  Davey wore eyeliner all weekend.  He painted his fingernails black this evening, and he says that he wants to get rid of all his basketball jersies and but black and plaid shirts instead. He asked me if I would dye his hair permanently black (hell no...I can deal with green or blue streaks in it, but not all over black), but he balked when I suggested he get a mohawk.  Even a faux hawk is too extreme for him. He too wants a pair of black converse.  Jake wants me to paint his fingernails for him, and he, again, wants a pair of converse. 

I don't have an issue with them being this way...but their dad will.  They boys used to want me to paint their toenails when they were small, and Dave detested that.  I don't think that the passage of time will have softened him up any on the cosmetics for boys front.  I think he's going to have a fit when he hears about his sons and their desires.  I also think that if he does he's forgotten how he was as a teen.

See, Dave grew up in the '80's.  He was a GnR freak, he grew his hair long, wore tight ripped jeans and cowboy boots - very expensive boots, I might add.  He paid $360 for a pair once - he wore them to graduate in, to get married to me in, and when both boys were born.  I was in labor with Davey and we had to turn around and go home so that Dave could put on his boots.  He had a leather jacket, wore a bandana in his hair...looked like a regular Axel Rose. 

So Dave really ought to understand what it's like to be a teen and pre-teen, to want to express yourself and feel that the only way you can do that is via your appearance.  I know I do.  I recall it all too well.  I recall fights with my parents that put a wedge between us that lasted for years.  All over hair and clothes.  I swore I wouldn't do that with my kids, and I meant it.  I won't. 

I'm going to have to put my money where my mouth is and support my children's decisions when it comes to their appearence.  I'm also going to have to have a chat with my husband and ask him to do the same. 

This is how we said were going to parent our kids.  We've achieved that, so now we're going to have to live with the consequences of it.


Comments
on Nov 16, 2005
Another saying that comes to mind is, "Be careful what you wish for... you just might get it!"

We have raised our kids to not be afraid to say what they feel and express themselves, but it goes the opposite way here. We don't have them make us justify the rules and standards in our home, if they want to question a rule of standard, it is on them to justify the change. It has led to some pretty interesting discussions at times. It has also led to some changes in the way we, as a family, do things, since to tell you the truth, the kids have come up with some pretty convincing arguments at times. It has also taught them that there are rules in this world, some we can change and some we can't, and that's life. It has also taught them that if you want to challenge a rule or standard in life, it is up to you to justify the change, not up to society to conform to the way you want it to be, simply because you want them to.

So far, we haven't run into any cosmetics for boys type situations (which is lucky for all of us since I they would have to come up with a lot of convincing arguments to change my mind on the subject). It would be interesting to hear what they would come up with if they decided they wanted to try. ;~D

Yet another great family article from Dharma!!!
on Nov 16, 2005

We don't have them make us justify the rules and standards in our home, if they want to question a rule of standard, it is on them to justify the change. It has led to some pretty interesting discussions at times. It has also led to some changes in the way we, as a family, do things, since to tell you the truth, the kids have come up with some pretty convincing arguments at times. It has also taught them that there are rules in this world, some we can change and some we can't, and that's life. It has also taught them that if you want to challenge a rule or standard in life, it is up to you to justify the change, not up to society to conform to the way you want it to be, simply because you want them to.

Oh we make them justify the way they want to do things as well.  That's a 2 way street.  For instance, they wanted to stay up late Saturday night.  I said no.  They put forth an argument, and I acquiesed, saying that I was going to wake then up at 10am sunday regardless of what time they went to bed.  They thought they were all cool because they had 'won'....until 10 am sunday when I made them get out of bed and stay awake,  then it rapidly became apparent that staying up until the wee hours sucked when you had to get up the next day.

They're learning that we do things for a reason.  They may not like the reason, but they understand why we do the things we do.  I'm happy with that...having them understand makes them more apt to cooperate.  Setting rules and not explaining  why to them tends to cause rebellion - and that's not good for anyone.

I told their dad about the nail polish.  He said he has to take it off, that he's too little to be wearing it.  I think that I'm backing out of this particular battle and letting the two of them argue their cases on their own.

on Nov 16, 2005
So far, we haven't run into any cosmetics for boys type situations


Hey, boy george wore cosmetics and he grew up fine...............right.
on Nov 17, 2005
Kids do all kinds of things to find themselves. My son in the last part of his high school years started painting his nails school colors Black & Orange. Painting his face as scare as he could on game days. With the help of Tex. At the time his dad was a preacher and teacher. The poor little old ladies had a hard time getting use to him wait on the Lords Supper with painted nails and colored hair. But they got use to it. At one point he even shaved all his head but left long blonde bangs which he had the girls in school put bead on. Dressed in cloths from the 60's and 70's. To make a long story short. He now is a missionary and dresses normal. Hang in there with you and your husbands love they will turn out just great!
on Nov 17, 2005

Kids do all kinds of things to find themselves.

Never a truer word has been spoken.  I know I did...and in a way, I'm still doing it.  Each time I color my hair or get a new tattoo, I'm making a change to myself that assists me in becoming who I am and in showing others who I am.

The poor little old ladies had a hard time getting use to him wait on the Lords Supper with painted nails and colored hair. But they got use to it

HAHAHAHA!  I would imagine that would have been quite somehting to see, and would also have been a good lesson for the church in general about tolerance.  Christ doesn't care what you wear!

Hey, boy george wore cosmetics and he grew up fine...............right

Yeah.  That's EXACTLY what his dad is worried about.

on Nov 17, 2005
Everything we want to do, we have to argue our case over. There is no 'because I said so' in our house. We have to rationalize and justify everything, because they're always challenging us. They do it respectfully, they never forget that they are the children and we are the parents...but still we have to respond to their challenges.


I like the idea, and may possibly consider it with Kole, but right now, I've told her that the reason why 'I said so' is because it's more suitable to the situation.
For instance, I love the idea of letting her pick out her own clothing, but the reality is, I'm the only who does the laundry, buys the clothing, and knows what's clean and what isn't. If she wants to sleep in, then she has to go with my fashion choices, than spend another 15 minutes longer picking out her own outfit. So now, when she asks why she can't wear a dress to school, it's simply 'because I said so', because I'm not going through that speech every bloody morning.
Maybe when she's older, though. hehehe.
ps.
I could give you a list of very 'masculine' men wearing eyeliner/cosmetics for you to send to Dave.
Great article.
on Nov 17, 2005
I'm going to veer off track here for a second. I'm in college, and therefore unqualified to give you parenting advice.

But tell them to vary their colors once in a while. Wearing all black doesn't make you punk; wearing something weird and damning what other people, especially the "punk crowd", thinks is very punk. And if you buy something from Hot Topic... *shakes fist as menacingly as a skinny geek can*
on Nov 17, 2005

Wearing all black doesn't make you punk

Oh yeah, they know that.  Davey wants some bright yellow converse, and Shea is into all kinds of colors.  As for hot topic....yeah, that place is mainstream masquerading at punk. 

I never pictured you as skinny, Zwei.  Now you got me all curious as to what you look like.  Can you send me a picture?  dharmagirl69@gmail.com

on Nov 17, 2005
D there is no way my husband would EVER let his boys wear makeup. No way.

I don't wholly disagree with him either. I am not comfortable with men who wear makeup. Maybe its a flaw of mine, but whatever, I don't like it. If I am chatting with a guy and he is wearing makeup, inside I am thinking, what a girl! I don't care how tuff he looks, if he's wearing it I'm thinking he's girly.

I was a teen in the 80's too, when a lot of the rockers wore lots of makeup and big hair. I didn't like it then either. Too girly.

I don't care about mohawks or bright shoes or anything like that, so I am not sure why the make up thing repulses me to such a degree. Maybe because wearing make up was such a right of passage for me into "womanhood." It was a big deal for me the first time I was allowed to wear it, well into my highschool years. My girlfriends went through the same passage, and it was ours. A girl thing.

I will forever associate make up with femininity. I don't think you have to wear it to be feminine, but if someone is wearing it I think, well, feminine. Make sense?

Now I am def not saying everyone sees it that way and maybe kids today can wear it without anyone thinking its girly where you live...I dunno. I know a boy wouldn't wear make up around here without being accousted in some way by the other kids.

I don't envy you that battle with Dave though. If I disagreed with Robert on this issue and my son wanted to do it. Wow, that could get STICKY!

Good luck!
on Nov 17, 2005

A little young for the boys.  But they will grow out of it. At least most of it.  IN time.  maybe a long time.

How old is Dave now?