Why are you praying for that?

Published on August 29, 2005 By dharmagrl In Misc

A few years ago, my husband's grandmothers sister (which would make her my great aunt) was put in an nursing home.

She was in her 80's, and had recently suffered a series of strokes which had left her unable to care for herself.

Dave and I were over visitng and offered to take grandma to see her sister. We trooped into Myrtle's room, expecting to see her sitting up in bed, watching TV or reading - at the very least we expected her to be aware of her surroundings.

What we found was VERY different. Myrtle, bless her heart, was in a state not unlike that of an infant human. She could open her eyes, but she showed no signs of recognizing her sister or us. She had a urinary catheter, a diaper, a feeding catheter, an IV, and she was wearing restraints to stop her from pulling her tubes out. She laid there, and she moaned. She rocked from side to side (as much as the restraints would allow her to) and she moaned.

This went on the entire time we were there. We talked to her, she moaned. We tried to reassure her she was safe; that we were there, and she rocked and moaned. There was no recognition in her eyes or on her face at the sight of us or the sound of our voices. 'Myrtle' wasn't there. The body that was lying in that bed was simply an animated husk. Myrtle was long gone.

D's grandma's a devout christian. She's a firm believer in the power of prayer. She turned to me and she said "I've been praying for poor Myrtle to come out of this and be restored back to herself again, but I don't think God's listening to me".

I didn't know what to say. My first response would have been "WTF are you praying for that for? I'd be praying for this poor woman to die and be released from this misery she's trapped in" (obviously I didn't say it, but I thought it). I mean, Myrtle was in her late 80's. She'd had a longer than average life. Was praying for her to be "restored" realistic? And why was grandma praying for that anyway? Was it because she couldn't bear for Myrtle to die and be taken from her? I can understand that, nobody likes their loved ones to go away forever, but c'mon.....there comes a time when I honestly think it's better to pray for a person's release than thier restoration.

Why DO people pray for things like this? For their loved ones to be saved? Why do they pray for the 'against all odds' act of grace to happen, for whoever it is they're praying for to be saved or spared death? And how do they feel when their prayers aren't answered? Do they feel like God's let them down? Or are they happy to take a back seat and say "this hurt me, but I'm trusting you...you must have a plan for me that didn't involve this". What is God DOESN'T have a plan? What is this is all random choas, if shit just happens and it's up to us to deal with it?

What then?

Why do people pray for things that just don't make sense?

(Myrtle died in her sleep later that year. I rejoiced)

Comments (Page 2)

Texas Wahine

on Aug 29, 2005

I see prayer as a coping mechanism.

The Christian view (ha, and just the other day I had a discussion about this with my Christian mother) is that when you ask for something, if you get receive it, it was god's will, and if you don't then you what you were asking for wasn't good for you.

So, when you receive what you've asked for, you praise god for taking care of you. And when you don't receive it, you acknowledge your own folly and praise god for taking care of you.

I think it's a way to see order in chaos. There are things that we can have no effect on, but if we believe that we can ask this deity that has our best interests at heart to intercede on our behalf, then we don't feel so out of control and hopeless.

When I was Christian, I was awful about prayer, and only prayed when I was under stress or had a need. Many will say that prayer is about "letting go" and handing control over to god, but in reality prayer is about gaining a sense of control by allowing ourselves to believe that our prayers will affect the outcome of something that is hopelessly out of our control.

Even now that I have abandoned Christianity, when something is chaotic and seems dire, I have an urge to pray. It's a conditioned response to stress. A coping mechanism.

Therefore, people pray for what they want to happen, hoping for what they want but with a realization that what will happen will happen, and because they have prayed, they can accept the outcome as being "what's best" and assign positive meaning to it.

I think it's equal parts attempting to gain control of the world around them and coping with chaos through viewing bad or undesirable events as serving a purpose.

Or are they happy to take a back seat and say "this hurt me, but I'm trusting you...you must have a plan for me that didn't involve this"

Exactly.

HC1240

on Aug 29, 2005

Therefore, people pray for what they want to happen, hoping for what they want but with a realization that what will happen will happen, and because they have prayed, they can accept the outcome as being "what's best" and assign positive meaning to it.

This assumes that the only things prayed for are perceived needs. I pray for many other reasons. I pray because I want to stay connected to God and you can't have a deep or meaningful relationship with anyone without communication. I speak to Him (giving thanksgiving, giving Him worship and adoration, sharing what's on my heart, confession, interceding for others, asking for guidance, asking Him to give me understanding into the truth of His Word, asking Him to guard my speech, even just telling Him about my day) and He speaks to me through His Word. I don't know how many times I've requested wisdom from God over a particular situation I'm dealing with, and then He guides me to a place in the Bible that speaks directly to that circumstance. This is what comes from a lifestyle of prayer.. not just a quick one shot off as you find yourself in the middle of frightening or unsettling circumstances... but solid conversation with the Living God.

Cultivating an attitude of prayer brings humility to my life. Admitting my dependence on God helps me to abandon my pride. I don't achieve some sense of control from it (actually, I've often found that when I trust God completely, He leads me to places where I'm completely out of my comfort zone), but I learn to depend on Him. It's practicing the presence of God... laying it all open before Someone who loves me -- in spite of me -- and knowing that it doesn't matter what I've done, it's been atoned for and I have peace.

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." My Bible tells me that this is true. My experience has convinced me that it is.

Texas Wahine

on Aug 29, 2005

HC: I think if it works for you and makes your life better or easier to deal with, then that's great.

Petitioning a perceived higher being for something and then praising it when events go as I wish and questioning/condemning my own motives or desires and praising that same higher being for "knowing better than me" when things do not go as I wish is just not something I can go along with.

I don't know how many times I've requested wisdom from God over a particular situation I'm dealing with, and then He guides me to a place in the Bible that speaks directly to that circumstance.

My question to you is this: How does god guide you? What events make you believe that god himself has shown you a passage that you find useful or comforting?

The Christian attitude seems to be that if god doesn't make sense to you or you if you don't assign credit to god for happy coincidences that it's because YOU are lacking.

The Bible says that god answers the prayers of the righteous. What if you aren't righteous? Do your prayers fall on deaf ears? How do you know whether god considers you righteous?

And then there's the thing where people who consider themselves to be righteous say that god answers all prayers but sometimes the answer is no, which is a convenient explanation for the failure of the "power of prayer". Because god knows best, right? Then why even have prayer?

It's like a parent telling a child, "I'm making a menu for the week. Let me know what foods you'd like to have and which ones you don't." Then the parent proceeds to make the menu without consideration for the child's tastes.

When the child gets hot dogs and cupcakes, the child is supposed to thank the gracious parent for the wonderful gift. When the child gets broccoli soup, the child is supposed to inwardly chide himself for his poor food choices and thank his parent for feeding him something that was good for him.

Why ask the child to even bother making requests?

PS - My intent is not to be antagonistic toward you. These are just questions or disagreements I have with Christianity.

HC1240

on Aug 29, 2005

My question to you is this: How does god guide you? What events make you believe that god himself has shown you a passage that you find useful or comforting?

I don't just close my eyes, point, and have my fingers fall on exactly the words I need, if that's what you're asking.

Sometimes it's something that I run across through a study of something unrelated... sometimes I hear a sermon on Sunday morning that directly relates to my circumstances... sometimes a friend will call with counsel that's based on Scripture (although maybe not word for word or quoting a reference) and it speaks to the situation I'm going through. It works for me.

The Christian attitude seems to be that if god doesn't make sense to you or you if you don't assign credit to god for happy coincidences that it's because YOU are lacking.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you feel that I was claiming that those who don't believe are lacking? If that's the case, then I can assure you that's not how I feel. I'm not any better than anyone else, whether they are of the faith or not. I sin just like everyone else... and even now, as a believing Christian, I find myself saying and doing things from time to time that I'm ashamed of. I am the wretch the song refers to. If you mean that I recognize that I myself am lacking when God doesn't operate as I think He should, then I guess in a way... He knows much more than I do, and I'm glad. I think if I had omniscience my brain would explode. But sometimes, God acts in a way that I dislike... and it's not that I was wrong, or that I didn't have enough faith. It just is the way things are.

The Bible says that god answers the prayers of the righteous. What if you aren't righteous? Do your prayers fall on deaf ears? How do you know whether god considers you righteous?

"The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." I guess the answer lies in your perspective of what "righteous" means. I'm not righteous because of anything I've done... I'm righteous because God sees me through His Son, Jesus. If I had to depend on my own righteousness I'd be in deep DEEP trouble... but when He gave His life for mine, He gave me His righteousness in place of my sinfulness. I heard someone describe it recently as God seeing me through "Jesus-colored glasses." Anyway, because of what He did for me, I am considered righteous in God's eyes... and anyone can be, regardless of what they've done (or they think they've done). All they have to do is accept what Jesus did on the cross for them and reach out for Him.

And then there's the thing where people who consider themselves to be righteous say that god answers all prayers but sometimes the answer is no, which is a convenient explanation for the failure of the "power of prayer".

I agree... you can look at that and see it as a convenient explanation for the failure of prayer. But we can explain away or justify anything that happens, can't we? We find ways to rationalize away whatever we don't choose to believe. I find ways to explain away the theory of evolution. Someone else will find a way to explain away the existence of God. But that's the beauty of freedom... we get to decide for ourselves what we believe, and then live according to it. I suppose, if I'm wrong about Christianity, it won't matter when I die. If it gives comfort and meaning to my life here and now, is that a bad thing?

Because god knows best, right? Then why even have prayer?

Aaaaah. I understand the frustration here well. I've wrestled on occasion with that very question. I posted about it in Dharma's "Random Ramblings" post. Link If God is going to do what He wants anyway, why bother to ask for what I want? But it all comes down to relationship. If my daughter all of a sudden quit talking to me because she didn't like a choice I had made for her.... I would be saddened. There are things I'd love to share with her, but if she won't come to me, then I can't give her those things... or tell her those things. Most of all, I want her to know that she can always come to me, no matter what's going on. That I will be here to hold her in my arms when she needs it... to show her the right direction to take when she doesn't know where to turn... to discipline her when she needs it. I don't ask her to beat herself up when what she's asked me for isn't good for her. Instead I try to teach her why it wasn't the right choice, and help her to learn from it. But we don't dwell on her past mistakes, and God doesn't do that with me either. He just picks me up, dusts me off, and sets me in the right direction again.

This is how my faith works for me. I didn't think you were being antagonistic, and I enjoy healthy discussion.

When someone questions why I believe what I believe, it makes me really take a deeper look at my faith, and that's never a bad thing. If you can't explain why you believe what you do, then how much substance does it really have?

DrDonald

on Aug 30, 2005

But it all comes down to relationship.

My thoughts exactly. There was a time in my life where I felt I had abandoned all faith in the God that I had been brought up to know. Mind you, this was a judgemental one. Unworthiness, mistrust and abandonment were the feelings I most often identified within myself while in His presence.

Then something changed. I reached a low point in my life. So, I prayed. What I asked for might seem like very little: only strength and direction. The impact that had on my life was overwhelming though. My trust in this other more benevolent and nurturing God has grown each time I seek His will. I also often ponder about how much I am loved, as I consider that my love for my children is but a pale reflection of that higher love. My relationship has grown to include prayers of gratitude as well.

As for your grandmother, Dharmagrl, one of the most common challenges I encounter when families grieve is that members often find themselves at different stages in the grieving process: some in denial, some in bargaining, some in anger, some in sadness and finally some in acceptance. I think you and she were just at different stages. In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous one doctor-alcoholic-addict writes: "Acceptance is the answer to all my problems." Easier said than done. Myself included.

Wonderful thread.

dharmagrl

on Aug 30, 2005

I didn't see dharma say or even act as if Mason's comments were unwanted, if that WERE the case I'm sure she can find her blacklist option.

Yep, I'm perfectly capable of that.

The reason I reacted as I did was because I didn't see any denigrating of another person's beliefs on this thread, but it seems that no matter what i write about Christianity I get accused of just that...denigrating another person's beliefs. I don't like insinuation, period....if people have something to say, just come right out and say it. Don't fuck around and hint, just damn well say it. There IS no denigration, the questions I posed are honest and straightforward and I'm getting (for the most part) honest and straightforward responses.

Personally, I wouldn't want a God that I could manipulate. What kind of omnipotence is that?

I think that people try to bargain with god every day though. I hear stories of people praying and saying things like "i'll stop drinking forever if you just spare my child".....to me, that's bargaining.

I think it's a way to see order in chaos. There are things that we can have no effect on, but if we believe that we can ask this deity that has our best interests at heart to intercede on our behalf, then we don't feel so out of control and hopeless.

I think that you and I are on much the same wavelength about it. I believe in the power of prayer, in the power of positive thinking, but I don't think that it works in the way a lot of people believe it does. I think that there's a power bigger than all of us that we simply can't comprehend because we're not that sophisticated, and that prayer is a way of tapping into that power.....but at the same time I think that a lot of prayer is a self-defense mechanisim when times get tough. I know I've used it as that.

Because god knows best, right? Then why even have prayer?

I ask myself that question all the time.

But sometimes, God acts in a way that I dislike... and it's not that I was wrong, or that I didn't have enough faith. It just is the way things are.

Then why bother praying? Also, if God is omnipotent and all-knowing, doesn't he already know what's in your heart and mind? So why do we have to ask in the form of prayer? Again, I'm not trying to be antagonistic (I like you too much to do that to you) I'm really just very interested.

I suppose, if I'm wrong about Christianity, it won't matter when I die. If it gives comfort and meaning to my life here and now, is that a bad thing?

That sort of fulfil's Pascal's Wager.

If you can't explain why you believe what you do, then how much substance does it really have?

Thank you for saying that, it makes me feel much better about asking questions....

In the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous one doctor-alcoholic-addict writes: "Acceptance is the answer to all my problems."

But do you need god to do that? Can you not be totally non-theistic and STILL be accepting?

DrDonald

on Aug 30, 2005

But do you need god to do that? Can you not be totally non-theistic and STILL be accepting?

Short answer: Yes, I think that most people can be accepting and non-theistic.

Long answer:
My spirituality is an enrichment to my life. It widens my world from the confines of that which is strictly physical, intellectual and emotional. In this way, it helps to give me context. I see my place. I belong here. Without some belief in a power greater than myself, I don't think that I, personally, would be capable of acceptance of myself or the world around me, nor of making healthier changes in myself. It's the help that I need.

I agree that it's not for everyone.

Here's an interesting link to the wikipedia on Carl Jung who tended to see his patients in a spiritual context. Under #influence: Link

DrDonald

on Aug 30, 2005

sorry, ddoublee ppostt

MasonM

on Aug 30, 2005

After some much needed sleep and re-reading the thread, I can understand why Dharma felt one of my examples was intended as a slight directed toward her. In hindsight, considering the topic of the article, it was a poor choice of words on my part. But I want to be very clear here in saying that an insult was not the intention at all. I can't say it any more clearly than that.

I apologize for any offense, however unintended it may have been.

Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:

Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums.
Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
It's simple, and FREE!