I guess the key is "What they want to be".  Granted some will want to be things that are not possible, but most will be able to be what they want to be.  Your 9 year old son probably does not want to be a brain surgeon, but maybe a culinary chef.  While I dont see pushing a child to be something they cannot be, I also dont see writing off those who may aspire to great heights that perhaps we think they cannot attain.  The human spirit can do wonderous things when it wants something badly enough.

dharma,

Excellent point. I have always said that if the best someone can aspire to is a fry cook, they should aspire to be the best fry cook they can be (oh wait, that wasn't me...that was Spongebob Squarepants).

But seriously...people should be encouraged to develop TO their potential, not BEYOND it as is so often the case.

Very good point! I actually have nothing to add....

~Zoo

Who determines what is within a child's potential?

I understand that there are certain cases in which reality defines that... but here's an example for you.

My daughter was badly burned when she was four years old. Prior to that, she was an active, healthy, beautiful young girl who loved to dance, sing and perform. If there was a stage, Jasmine was running for it.

On January 15th, 2000, a candle caught the hem of her dress on fire. As a result she suffered third degree burns over 90% of her body. I sat in the waiting room of a Shriner's hospital as doctors told me that IF she lived, she would probably never walk again. A couple of months into her recovery, a well meaning psychologist told me that we would have to give up many of the dreams we had for Jasmine. Granted, this counselor was trying to provide me with a dose of reality, but it didn't lessen the sting of her words at all.

Within a year of the fire that could easily have taken her life, Jasmine was not only alive and walking, but also participating in a dance recital.

Now, five years later, Jasmine is one of the most active children I know. She skiis, plays field hockey, soccer and basketball, and still races to the stage every chance she gets. She LOVES the spotlight. Her body will be scarred for life... and she will still undergo skin grafting surgeries as the years go by, but I will never underestimate her spirit. If she decides she wants to pursue a career in the arts, I won't be the one to tell her that she can't because her skin isn't perfect or she doesn't have "the look". If she wants to be a veterinarian, I'll do all I can to help her achieve that goal as well.



I understand that we need to help our children develop realistic expectations, but at the same time, I don't ever want to limit my children's potential because of what *I* think they can achieve. God has shown me that He's still in the business of providing miracles, and while I try to balance reality and faith... I've learned that He is capable of much more than I could ever ask for or imagine.

While generally I agree, you never know......I never showed any mechanical skill or intrest growing up, but after I got my Mustang, I forced myself to learn so well, that now I have to beat off friends w/ car trouble w/ a bat. (Which I sawed off filled the end w/ lead.....isn't having a home foundry fun?!!!)

Also, Julio Iglesias was a paralytic who had never played a lick, the Colonel spent over two years on the road before finding someone to sell chicken by his recipe, Charlie "Bird" Parker sucked so bad before going home and practicing his ass off for a couple of years that he couldn't even get a job performing. Herman Melville died thinking he was a failure. So did Berlioz. Hemingway comitted suicide. Van Gogh only sold one painting.......ever. And on....and on.....and on.....

Besides, I'd rather be shitty at a job I loved, than be great at a job I hated. In fact, on Friday I'm getting to leave I job I'm shitty at, AND I hate. Best of both worlds.

While I dont see pushing a child to be something they cannot be, I also dont see writing off those who may aspire to great heights that perhaps we think they cannot attain. The human spirit can do wonderous things when it wants something badly enough.

This is true, but...we're not talking about the human spirit.  We're talking about intelligence, grades, and aptitude.  I don't care how badly a person might WANT to be a doctor, if they have an IQ of 77 and find that high school work is beyond them then their chances of becoming a doctor are..well, slim to none. 

But seriously...people should be encouraged to develop TO their potential, not BEYOND it as is so often the case.

Very good point!

That's EXACTLY my point.  Telling a child that they can be anything they want to be if they just try hard enough sets them up for feelings of failure and disappointment when they can't achieve the unrealistic expectations they might have set for themselves. 

understand that we need to help our children develop realistic expectations, but at the same time, I don't ever want to limit my children's potential because of what *I* think they can achieve

I'm not necessarily talking about what you think your children can achieve, I'm talking about leading them to believe that all it takes to succeed  is hard work because that's simply not true.  You have to have SOME intelligence and aptitude. 

Your little girl is beautiful, btw....

 

Also, Julio Iglesias was a paralytic who had never played a lick, the Colonel spent over two years on the road before finding someone to sell chicken by his recipe, Charlie "Bird" Parker sucked so bad before going home and practicing his ass off for a couple of years that he couldn't even get a job performing. Herman Melville died thinking he was a failure. So did Berlioz. Hemingway comitted suicide. Van Gogh only sold one painting.......ever. And on....and on.....and on.....

Yes, but they all had aptitude.  I'm talking about giving kids an unrealistic point of view on the world by telling that all it takes to succeed is trying hard.  That's a big part of it, yes, but that's not all.  I haven't achieved my goal of being a quantum physicist because I can't get my head around the equations....see where I'm going with this?

 

never showed any mechanical skill or intrest growing up, but after I got my Mustang, I forced myself to learn so well, that now I have to beat off friends w/ car trouble w/ a bat

Just because you never showed any interest doesn't mean that you never had the aptitude for it....and you obviously are smart enough to understand the way a combustion engine works.  If you have neither of those attributes you wouldn't have been able to be a mechanic, no matter how hard you tried.

While I dont see pushing a child to be something they cannot be, I also dont see writing off those who may aspire to great heights that perhaps we think they cannot attain. The human spirit can do wonderous things when it wants something badly enough. This is true, but...we're not talking about the human spirit. We're talking about intelligence, grades, and aptitude. I don't care how badly a person might WANT to be a doctor, if they have an IQ of 77 and find that high school work is beyond them then their chances of becoming a doctor are..well, slim to none.

Sorry but you should do a little more looking. Having a low IQ does NOT mean that you are incapable of learning something. It only means that you will have to work "harder" at it to learn it.

Yes, but they all had aptitude. I'm talking about giving kids an unrealistic point of view on the world by telling that all it takes to succeed is trying hard. That's a big part of it, yes, but that's not all. I haven't achieved my goal of being a quantum physicist because I can't get my head around the equations....see where I'm going with this

And who's to say what aptitude a child has? So why would you limit their choices by not telling them? All you can do is tell them to try very hard. "They" will find their aptitude in time.

All you can do is tell them to try very hard. "They" will find their aptitude in time.

Yes, they will, and there's nothing wrong with trying hard. However, that's not the end of the story. 

Having a low IQ does NOT mean that you are incapable of learning something. It only means that you will have to work "harder" at it to learn it.

Aw, gimme a break, DrM!  I KNOW that a low IQ doesn't mean people are incapable of learning, but it DOES mean that there are some things you're not going to be able to get your head around!  Cripes, I can't even manage advanced math equations no matter how hard I try, and I'm supposed to be of higher than average intelligence!  I'm simply saying that blandly telling a child, especially a child with a disadvantage (either physical or mental) that they can do whatever the hell they want as long as they try hard enough is doing them a disservice and is setting them up for failure.  They're going to feel like they simply didn't try hard enough and beat themselves up when they fail to reach the unattainable goal they've either set for themsleves or have had set for them.

This is the real world, this aint no cloud cuckoo land.  If you're blind, you're not going to be able to be a pilot, no matter how hard you try.  If you're of below average intelligence a career in astro physics is probably not going to happen for you.  I'd much rather my kids be aware of what their capabilities are and set their standards a little above what they think their potential is rather than have this pie-in-the-sky idea that they can do whatever  they want....and then be devastated when that doesn't happen.

If his mother had raised him to believe he could be a surgeon, she would have been doing him a disservice, and I think this is what dharma was getting at.

That's EXACYTLY what I'm getting at.  Thanks, S!

 

HOWEVER, the reason these stories are told so often is because they are the exception to the rule

And that's part of the reason they're so well known, IMO....BECAUSE they were the exception to the rule.

I'm simply saying that blandly telling a child, especially a child with a disadvantage (either physical or mental) that they can do whatever the hell they want as long as they try hard enough is doing them a disservice and is setting them up for failure. They're going to feel like they simply didn't try hard enough and beat themselves up when they fail to reach the unattainable goal they've either set for themsleves or have had set for them.

Gotcha... and thanks. *s*

This is true, but...we're not talking about the human spirit. We're talking about intelligence, grades, and aptitude. I don't care how badly a person might WANT to be a doctor, if they have an IQ of 77 and find that high school work is beyond them then their chances of becoming a doctor are..well, slim to none.

Just remember.  Albert Einstein failed math in school.  SOme people dont bloom until late in life.  That does not mean that my nephew with DS is going to be a doctor, but I will not write off him have a productive life either.

Yes, I want them to be all that they can be, but I want them to do it within their capabilities. Our Jake, for example, isn't a 'book smart' child,

That means nothing Dharma. History abounds with great minds that did not fit the "book smart" pigeon hole. Give him time and be patient and alow him to be the best he can be at what ever he does, maybe his "thing" (still trying at nearly 45 years of age to figure out what my "thing" is, BTW!) is the hands on kind of thing that cooking is. I'll lay you a little wager that he would be a phenomenal mechanic or welder or carpender and I would be VERY PROUD of him if he were. I think the key phrase here is the want to be that is in your title of this blog. And what he wants to be, he can be. I really, honestly believe that.

I'll lay you a little wager that he would be a phenomenal mechanic or welder or carpender and I would be VERY PROUD of him if he were.

I have the same feeling about him.  He's very, very good at tactile things. 

Why is everyone thinking that I'm basically writing kids off with this article?  I'm not, far from it.  I'm all for encouraging kids and not letting them get disappointed or frustrated with themselves...which is why I really do believe that we need to stop with this 'anything you want to be' crap and tell them to 'be your potential' instead.

That does not mean that my nephew with DS is going to be a doctor, but I will not write off him have a productive life either.

C'mon, Doc, I don't think you'll find dharma saying you should do that anywhere, let alone this thread.

I've worried about childhood potential, detecting it, and encouraging it, a bit. I never eeeeeeever lived up to my potential, unless my highest potential is to be "passing fair" at whatever I try (I feel it's more a lack of motivation... anyway, whatever).

I'm certain dgrl is very encouraging of her children; she wasn't saying to *not* be encouraging of your children... just be realistic about the potential results, and try to pass that realism along. (I have no idea how to pass that along, but I imagine it will just be absorbed through osmosis, like many other traits.)


ps - Thanks for sticking that dang Blue's Clues song in my head.

That does not mean that my nephew with DS is going to be a doctor, but I will not write off him have a productive life either.

Nowhere in this article or thread did I say that I was going to write off ANY child.  I believe that we all have a place in society...it's just that some of us are destined to be plumbers rather than peditricians.  THAT'S what i was trying to get at...that the world needs carpenters and bus drivers just as much as it needs lawyers and doctors and that we ought to be more proactive in making our kids understand that - as well as giving them a healthy sense of reality.

I'm certain dgrl is very encouraging of her children; she wasn't saying to *not* be encouraging of your children... just be realistic about the potential results, and try to pass that realism along

I am, and I'm encouraging of other people's kids as well.  I simply don't think that lulling children into believing that certain professions are within their reach is a good idea.

My cousins's kid is a good example of what I'm talking about.  Despite his barely squeaking by his GCSE's with low C grades, he decided that (against his teachers advice) he was going to go to college instead of the trade school that was recommended to him.  He found a college  that would take him despite his poor grades, had his parents subsidize him for tuition and books and rent and spent the next 3 years failing everything because it was simply too much for him.  Now he's 21, has never had a full time job in his life, is up to his eyeballs in debt (as are his folks) and isn't qualified to do a damn thing.  He set his sights too high and went for something that was beyind his capabilities instead of going to trade school and qualifying in something he showed a natural ability and aptitude for.

C'mon, Doc, I don't think you'll find dharma saying you should do that anywhere, let alone this thread

Thank you!  I haven't, and I wouldn't.