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Published on May 18, 2004 By dharmagrl In Current Events

The relatives of the Iraqi POW's at Abu Ghraib have stated that those American soldiers involved should be tried under Iraqi law and put to death for their crimes.

“This court will not bring justice, it’s nonsense. They should be tried by the Iraqis. According to Islamic law, they should be executed.” said Sharhabil Abdul-Rahman, brother of a POW housed at Abu Ghraib (and a former detainee himself).

Of course the Iraqi people are calling for blood.  Of course they see American Justice as insufficient and ineffective. They live in world where adultery will get you killed, where stealing will lose you a limb.  How can a reduction in rank, forfeiture of pay and allowances, a short period of incarceration in a cushy American military prison facility and a Bad Conduct Discharge be seen as anything less than a slap on the wrist to people who spend their lives living in fear of not only mortal physical violence but eternal punishment, should they fail to live up to the expectations of Islam and Muhammed? How can they possibly see any justice when our treatment of our own erroneous personnel is better than our treatment of their civilians?  As they themselves say, nothing short of execution is going to satisfy their sense of justice.

And therein lies the problem.  Because our cultures are so different, our expectations are very different. What seems like an extreme punishment to us, Americans, is nothing to them, Iraqis.  It wouldn't be so much of a stretch to  say that it's our religions that are so different.  We view them, Muslims as 'religious extremists' because their daily lives are goverened by their faith.  They live by the Koran, their judicial system is based upon Islamic values.  "What savages, what heathens, how uncultured" we say...

.but take a look at our lives in America.  We have 'In God We Trust' written on our currency.  Our judicial system is based on Judeo-Christian Values.  We have our children recite the Pledge Of Allegiance in school every morning, and our President, the leader of our country, invokes his God in public regularly.  Granted, we don't stone women to death for commiting adultery and we don't lop off hands for stealing...but we do execute murderers, and if the Christians in this country followed the word of the bible the way Muslims in Iraq followed the word of the Koran would we still be able to say we are so terribly different? 

So, nothing the US does in terms of judicial action against the POW abusers is going to be good enough for the Iraqis.  Unless we lead them out, naked, hooded, chained together, and execute them publicly the Iraqi public isn't going to be satiated.  They're going to still be crying for blood. It makes me wonder if this war is ever going to end. If we're ever going to be able to reconcile our differences.  Because, as close as we may seem upon inspection, we really are still worlds apart.

 


Comments
on May 18, 2004

"as close as we may seem upon inspection"

Dharma - I don't think we seem to be very close to Iraq on many levels except the biological. Where as some of the more *extreme* Christian sects beleive in "an eye for an eye" and all that. Vocal Muslims seem to beleive in "a head for a fingernail". I find the behaviour of the soldiers in Abu Ghraib abhorrent and I don't think a 20-50 year prison sentence to be unreasonable for them but not execution.

on May 18, 2004

And I agree that we are still worlds apart.  I just wanted to remind those who scream about 'religious fanaticism' that there was a time in the not-too-distant past that the US was burning people at the stake for practicing 'witchcraft'....and that our society is based on religious values as well, and, like I said, if the modern American Christian was to follow the word of their book of faith to the letter like the Iraqi Muslims do...well, people would be put to death left right and center for practices that society tolerates and often accepts as normal.

For as many similarities that I see between our cultures, I see many more differences.  Which is why I asked if we were ever going to be able to reconcile our differences....or if we're even going to be able to tolerate each other's culture.

on May 18, 2004
Interesting questions. With regards to the first, the ability to reconcile our differences. No, I do not believe this will happen. The foundations of our two cultures are too antithetical for reconciliation. Now, the second is different. Tolerance. Yes it can happen. But, not though parliaments or constitutions or military occupation and not in this generation.

So, what will overcome this animosity, How can the United States win the hearts and minds of the youth? The same way we did in the USSR. Commercial goods. The Soviet Union did not like us, but they loved our jeans, big macs and MTV. We cannot flood the market. But little by little, year by year. An internet café here, a McDonalds there, an online gamingplace. Small places where the youth can get together and talk and share ideas. Granted these ideas will be religious in nature a first, but eventually, talk will move to music, fashion, games and entertainment.

Will they love us, never. But, is it possible for their society to develop to where, while we may not have the same values, we do have common interests? Yes. And people with common interests can do incredible things.

Live long and prosper!

IG

on May 18, 2004

Excellent response, IG.  Very thought provoking...I hadn't even considered the commercial aspect of it, to be honest.  It all seems so...alien at the moment.  We (both sides) are all so focused on war, on the wrongs that have been done to us by the other party, that Big Macs and Levi sales seem too preposterous to be even considered a reality.  However, that's what was said about the US/USSR not so many years ago. Hmm.... 'Hard Rock Cafe, Bagdhad', perhaps?

on May 18, 2004
There are significant hurdles to the economic approach with Muslim nations though. It is difficult to sell the women clothes when wearing them is a stonable offense but I think the idea has tremendous merit.
on May 18, 2004

It is difficult to sell the women clothes when wearing them is a stonable offense but I think the idea has tremendous merit.


Perhaps Levi's could corner the burkha market?  Stonewashed burkhas could be the next big thing....

on May 18, 2004
I understand the apprehension, but remember, granted it was for the mob, business people sold the idea of Las Vegas. A city for gambling in the middle of a desert. The hula-hoop, pet rocks, we sell bottled water for pete's sake. I have faith in the American business person. If there is a market to be had in Iraq, they will find it. Granted they may have to change the items sold, but they are remarkably adaptable.

IG
on May 19, 2004
"Granted these ideas will be religious in nature a first, but eventually, talk will move to music, fashion, games and entertainment."

Is this what we want? Either for their children or for ours?

Many Muslims are fighting this very tendency. It is true that we must provide them with the amenities necessary for life and health if we are ever to get close enough to them for mutual understanding, but to impose a culture on another people is going too far.

Luxury gives luxury to those who can afford it, but it gives discontent to those who can't. We are now witnessing this in Russia. Just look at the crime figures.

on May 19, 2004

but to impose a culture on another people is going too far.

But isn't that what we're doing in Iraq right now to a certain extent? 

on May 19, 2004
wow this one has widened to the point where its difficult to know where to start.

as to the cultural clash of law....(this is gonna offend just about all the religions involved...sorry, the truth shall set yall free)

remember, despite what the former chief justice of the alabama supreme court seems to have deluded himself into believing, our laws are derived from the code of hammurabi who once ruled babylon. there are correlates with the 10 commandments; the general consensus seems to be the code is older but both are probably drawn from an even older original source. much of the qu'ran is directly derived from the torah. muhammed as prophet proclaims the jews violated their covenant and thus lost their standing as the chosen people. christians (islam considers jesus a prophet of the magnitude of moses) also dropped the ball faithwise causing god to pick muhammed and the arabs as his favorites. this is of course a gross simplification but essentially the story.

sharia is no more extreme than the myriad laws of the torah or roman law. or, for that matter, the laws enforced by church and crown for centuries in europe. during the middle ages, muslims had a basis for considering european culture as barbarous in many respects.

what didnt happen to islamic culture but changed ours immensely was the reformation and renaissance. our comparatively secular culture still has many remnants of theocracy (the symbols on our money, the wording of our national pledge, etc) the other major difference is tribalism.

their tribal outlook isnt dissimilar to many other agrarian extended families in an harsh environment with limited resources. sicily is as good example as any. appalachia is another. injury is revenged out of proportion and grudges are not fogotten easily. our blood price has been reduced to cash settlements. blood is cheaper than gasoline.

their fundamentalists consider western culture as decadent as do ours. the root (as best i can determine) of the present islamist movement is a document that was written in the early 50s calling on devoted muslims to resist western corruption with force to prevent it from spreading through the arab nations and eroding islamic traditions. .
on May 19, 2004

Thank you, kingbee.  You said exactly what I wanted to say, but much more eloquently than I ever could have.

 

on May 19, 2004
Dharmagrl - I think that all we're doing at the moment is killing them and getting killed ourselves.

Kingbee - That was damn insightful and erudite. Congrats.

Marco XX