Did you see the commercial that the Kurdish people paid for themselves? Please go to this site and watch and read. Iraq has many problems, but our soldiers that are building for and helping the suffering in Iraq don't believe they are there for a gallon of gas.

While you may differ with the president about why we are there or the relative benefit of it, the soldiers aren't there for those reasons. Look back at Vietnam, an awful and needless war. Those guys made something more of that war, just like our soldiers are making more of this one now.

I can't say what the moral consequences if Iraq will be. Maybe it WILL be seen as another Vietnam. I don't believe, though, that we can just chalk it up to good people suffering just for gas, because while the news focuses on the big picture, there are so many small stories that are different, and that are being told every day.

Not to detract or demean your feelings Dharma, because I can certainly understand them. But...

Because I cannot help but think that when that young man looks at his face in the mirror ten years (or 20, or 30) from now, he will think about what an awful price he paid for a gallon of gas.

...do people find their way into the military (enlist) and potential "battle" situations and simply expect to come out unscathed? It seems to me as this is something a person needs to way and risk when they do in fact enlist?

I feel for any soldier that fights for America and her causes. But they are warriors and they need to deal with the results or war"rioring".

While I disagree with the "gallon of gas" part, I understand how you feel. War is an ugly thing.

I didn't enlist in the Navy to nuke the hell out of other countries.. but neither did I enlist thinking I was fighting over Gas...

You were as grateful a Lady as I'd ever have been willing to personally meet on this one Dharma. It's people JUST like you that make serving worthwhile. Trust me on that one.

Whatever the motivations of the politicians who send soldiers to fight and die - indeed, whatever the motivation that initially drives someone to enlist; education, future career opportunities, whatever - I have always felt that someone who has faced his or her mortality in war, has conquered him- or herself to the degree that he or she can face that mortality, is in that regard alone a different kind of person to the majority.

Personally, I've always found that difference worthy of respect in its own right, no matter what the politics of any individual conflict are; no matter, even, what the virtues and vices of any individual soldier are apart from that quality. It doesn't matter whether Bush (or, in the case of British soldiers, Blair) sent soldiers to fight for a gallon of gas or not. I'm certain that the young man in question, when he fought, had no such motive in mind. I'm certain he fought for his comrades, for his own life, and for the things he loves so that he could return to them.

That generation of soldiers who fought in the Great War (WWI) have always affected me most deeply. They suffered atrociously (all of them, whatever nation they fought for), were poorly lead from the outset (in all theatres and on all fronts) and died in numbers that today seem incomprehensibly hideous. In the first five months of the Third Battle of Ypres in 1917 a minimum of a quarter of a million British servicemen died. Churchill thought that a conservative estimate. He believed the figure was closer to four hundred thousand.

In five months. Which puts a different perspective on the loss of not quite 3000 over the course of the Iraq war to date.

While American servicemen and women of today don't suffer to remotely the same degree, the central facts of what they experience remain the same: death, maiming, loss, terror. All those who suffer so and triumph over themselves become different.

To me that difference is worthy of respect - whether or not cretins such as Blair or Bush can be said to have sent soldiers to fight and die over a gallon of gas.

Excellent reply, EoIC.

I have the pleasure of living near Washington D.C. which is where many of the soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines that come back from foreign lands and require rehabilitation will come to.  As it turns out, just the other day our local news crews were doing a story on "awful price [that is being] paid" by these great heroes.

One soldier that was shown sounds a lot like what Dharma described.  He was missing the bottom of his face.  Actually, not quite missing it, as it was there but horribly deformed.  Nose missing, lips gone, a face that no one would ever recognize as human.  Yet the man behind the face was incredibly up-beat and bore no ill will against any one.

Another soldier was also shown.  He had suffered horrific burns to his body, including his skull.  He had no hair, or little hair remaining.  He had gotten a skin graft using skin from someone's chest.  He joked that he had asked the doctor after the operation if he'd wind up growing chest hair on his skull and laughed even more as he continued on to say sure enough a few weeks later he was sprouting curly hair up there.  He was not just happy but incredibly proud that he was going back to Iraq yet again -- by his own request -- to continue the job there.

The report counter balanced things a bit by talking to someone else that had been to Iraq and back and felt that things weren't going right there and that things were botched.

The following day there was an article in The Washington Post about Parsons.  A big contractor that had been given the impossible task of building 150 health clinics across Iraq all at the same time.  Along with contracts to build the a Police Academy type facility.  The company had gotten literally no where on building the health clinics and had done what is now seen as a pathetic job for the Police Academy facility.

The CEO of the company was not apologetic at all though.  He said that the expectations and goals were far too high to be accomplished all at one time, and worse for everyone involved is that the security situation has never been good and seems to be getting worse.

I think the Parsons CEO was right about one thing - we should have gone with building a few things at a time, build 3 - 4 clinics at a time, get them opened and up and running safely and move on to building the next 3 - 4.  Rinse and repeat.  We should have worked to get the borders in Iraq secure as soon as we had "won the war" and yet we didn't (and many people would say we have issues with securing our own borders that still desperately need to be tended to).

We have squandered a lot of opportunity in Iraq and we are asking people to continue to pay one hell of a price.  I hope that things get better and that we can improve the situation in Iraq so that the Iraqi people *and* our armed forces personnel (as well as the peace for everyone in the region) can benefit.

I look in the mirror having been out of the Corps almost 20 years now, I look in the mirror and see the scars, I feel the aches and pains from the physical wounds and at night I suffer the mental wounds of my service and the faces of the people that are no longer alive because of me. To comfort me I have the memories of my marriage, my kids, and the 140 a month disability payment that has skyrocketed up from 74 a month when I left the Corps. It is insulting to think any of my scars were for gas, political gain, or national pride. Save your tears dear lady, from what you have written you are far more wounded and scarred than that soldier. I am a bit bitter and I don’t mean it as a slam on you or your feelings. The fact that he and your husband are alive is a great comfort to me. Think of this, no matter how you feel about war or this war in particular, the men and women serving are doing it of their own free will, they understand what could happen and that it might happen to them. Just like me they never believed it would but it did and we live with our choices. But don’t ever insult a service member by shedding tears of pity for them. Shed tears of joy that they get to live.

By the way, some links related to the Parsons Police Academy contracting issues: Heralded Iraq Police Academy a 'Disaster'

The Builder Who Bombed in Iraq - Battered Over Failed Projects, Parsons's CEO Fires Back at Government Critics

Did you see the commercial that the Kurdish people paid for themselves

No, I didn't.  However, I will go and look right after I've addressed these comments.  Thanks for the link, btw.

I can't say what the moral consequences if Iraq will be. Maybe it WILL be seen as another Vietnam

I think that there's a good possibility that it will.  I was listening to Diane Rhem NPR last week and she had recieved an email from a soldier on his second tour in Iraq.  He said that things were no different on this second tour than they were on his first tour, right after the war kicked off.  Things like that don't do much to persuade the American public that we are any closer to victory, despite losing 3000 servicemen and women.

...do people find their way into the military (enlist) and potential "battle" situations and simply expect to come out unscathed?

No, I think (and from talking to my husband and some friends who are active duty) that they're very much aware that they could get shot or blown up or burned).  All the kevlar that they have to strap on every day is a good reminder of that.  Having said that, however, I think that a lot of them never REALLY expect it until it happens.  For once, I can't quite find the words to explain fully what I mean....but I'll go think about it and come back when I've found a way to explain myself a little better.  In the meantime, please don't go off on me!

 

While I disagree with the "gallon of gas" part, I understand how you feel. War is an ugly thing.

BINGO!  I think that's the part that bothers me more than anything else.  It's very easy to read about the number of lives lost in the paper or hear about people being maimed on the news.  It's an entirely different thing to see it up close and personal and to hear from the soldier's own mouth (a very badly burned and scarred mouth, I might add).  It's heartbreaking - it was for me, at least.

It's people JUST like you that make serving worthwhile. Trust me on that one.

Thank you.  That means a lot to me, especially coming from you.

Personally, I've always found that difference worthy of respect in its own right, no matter what the politics of any individual conflict are; no matter, even, what the virtues and vices of any individual soldier are apart from that quality. It doesn't matter whether Bush (or, in the case of British soldiers, Blair) sent soldiers to fight for a gallon of gas or not. I'm certain that the young man in question, when he fought, had no such motive in mind. I'm certain he fought for his comrades, for his own life, and for the things he loves so that he could return to them.

And I think that the majority of people, when they are in danger's way, don't think to themselves 'I'm going to stay alive and come out of this for the glorification of the good ol' U S of A'.  I think that (and in one case KNOW that) they're doing what they have to to stay alive so that they can come home to their families and the things that they love.  They cover each other's asses for the same reason; so that they can all come home alive.

While American servicemen and women of today don't suffer to remotely the same degree, the central facts of what they experience remain the same: death, maiming, loss, terror. All those who suffer so and triumph over themselves become different. To me that difference is worthy of respect

To me too.  Some of the people that Dave works with have come home from tours in Iraq changed men, and in a lot of ways those changes were not for the better.  However, that change is still worthy of respect.  They've done what others will not and cannot do, and deserve to be respected for that.

Excellent reply, EoIC.

I agree.

 

We have squandered a lot of opportunity in Iraq and we are asking people to continue to pay one hell of a price. I hope that things get better and that we can improve the situation in Iraq so that the Iraqi people *and* our armed forces personnel (as well as the peace for everyone in the region) can benefit

Absolutely.

 

But don’t ever insult a service member by shedding tears of pity for them.

My tears were not out of pity, they were compassionate tears.  There's a difference.

Thank you all for leaving such informative and simply briliant responses.  I'm very impressed with all of them!