"But those who say moderate Muslims don't protest terror can't be bothered to look for them. "

I look, and I see it happen, once in a blue moon. I don't recal muslims burning embassies or flags over 9/11. I do remember Palestinians cheering in the streets, though. And sympathy for Israeli dead is rarely if ever seen. Insult the "prophet", though, and all hell breaks loose.

So, if Islam wants to be seen as a religion that cares more about terror, hatred of freedom, and abuse of its citizens, they're doing a great job. Their diplomacy is a matter of making people fear them. Well, we do, but we don't react quite so well as they'd like. We tend to lash out at things that scare us, not serve it as if it were our master.

If moderate Muslims don't want to be caught in the crossfire, perhaps they should spend as much time defining their religion as those they differ with. SOMEONE WILL, and if it is the radical Muslims, well, babies do tend to get tossed out with the bathwater, unfortunately.

I don't recal muslims burning embassies or flags over 9/11.

Whose embassy? Whose flag? The Saudis? The banner of al'Qaeda, which has the holy word written on it (so they'd effectively be burning their profession of faith)?

And sympathy for Israeli dead is rarely if ever seen

Why should it? Many Israelis treat the war with the same dogmatic approach as the Palestinians. In my mind they're as bad as each other, the only difference being the Israelis use economic, political and military might to inflict damage rather than suicide bombs. They both need to grow up and get over it.

If moderate Muslims don't want to be caught in the crossfire, perhaps they should spend as much time defining their religion as those they differ with. SOMEONE WILL, and if it is the radical Muslims, well, babies do tend to get tossed out with the bathwater, unfortunately.

They do. There's thousands upon thousands of books written every year extolling a moderate approach to Islam. But they're theologians, not politicians. I can tell you right now the average religious treatise from moderate Islam is about as interesting as watching paint dry. Terrorists are going to end up being the popular image purely because they do newsworthy things. It's our duty to look further before we drop the bombs. The world doesn't exist to spoonfeed us.

"Terrorists are going to end up being the popular image purely because they do newsworthy things. It's our duty to look further before we drop the bombs. The world doesn't exist to spoonfeed us."

Look further why? As you say, the street-level approval in the middle east is going to go with those who set off the most bombs. Should we buid a big wall and keep them in there like a 5th century zoo?

This is not a situation we can live with, whether you want to believe so or not. People are getting more and more tired of people dying, however blase' it might seem to you. Now they demand we not make images of their religious figures. Do we say "Oh, let's take the high road and foul our freedom. At least they won't burn our embassies."

No. We do what we think is right, they do what they think is right, and whatever happens happens. I find it obtuse that you think we'd tolerate the Middle East as if it were some mentally challenged child who doesn't know better. If the Islamic nations of the Middle East want to start wars and make demands, it is sad that we should have to tolerate the dead so long as we are taking the "high road".

The world doesn't exist to spoonfeed them either, and that is exactly what you are suggesting. If Mexico promoted people sneaking across our border and blowing themselves up in malls, we'd be at war in the blink of an eye. You expect people to tolerate that from the poor Muslims that don't know any better. You're the one doing the spoonfeeding.

There are 1.6 BILLION muslims on this planet. If they actually spoke out against terrorism and meant it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And non-Muslims would never have to wonder.

But that's not reality.

Reality is, they have the numbers, but not the will. A few token groups of "poo poohing" at terrorists is not impressive in light of their numbers.

A few token groups of "poo poohing" at terrorists is not impressive in light of their numbers

Exactly. Saying 'we think it's wrong' whilst hundreds if not thousands of their fellow Muslims are out destroying embassies and blowing up buildings, trains, buses and cars and killing in the name of allah *spits* just isn't enough. Christ on a cracker, they lop off people's hands for stealing a fekkin' apple, why aren't they doing anything about the eejits who are doing all this???

It's simply not enough to say you don't agree anymore. Action is needed now, not words.

"Christ on a cracker, they lop off people's hands for stealing a fekkin' apple, why aren't they doing anything about the eejits who are doing all this???"

Aaaaaawwwwwwmmmm. I'm burnin Dharma's embassy.

Down with the Muslims who poison our wells, spread plagues and suffocate our childrens' minds!

---cacto

Well cacto, I'll tell you what: that's exactly what they want to do to you. They're coming to do just that.
And when they come, and it's YOUR wells being poisoned, YOU catch the plagues they're spreading and it's YOUR children's minds being suffocated, maybe you'll realize just how astute your little words of sarcastic wit here really were. Then it won't seem so funny. They won't care that you were the one stepping up to speak for them; they'll laugh at you for it before they kill you.
You're showing your callow youth. Optimism is a wonderful thing, but not when it serves to blind you to an impending and perhaps deadly threat to you and yours.
We can only safely rationalize Islam's behavior for so much longer.
I have to wonder: will the "peaceful and non-aggressive" Muslims you met speak up in time to save you from the "nuts" you mentioned? From what we've seen thus far since the late 70s, I'd have to say the answer is no. Perhaps they SHOULD all be tarred with same brush, if they're not willing to stand up and be counted as opposition in the face Fundamentalism's violence and destructiveness.
But, for what it's worth, I do give you props for recognizing the Saudis as the duplicitous phonies they in fact are.

By the way, Dharma....I agree with Baker. Congrats on a good write and read.

us and them, always. right. the silent cowardly muslim masses, refusing to speak or act are the reason why the violent minority now represents the entire religious population. ha-ha.

but "they" have spoken. and "they" are dead or dying--power ceded endlessly through their own deaths to stronger, more violent powers, both muslim and other. those with the capacity for violence have already utilized or are utilizing violence. they are using it against each other to survive, they are using it against us to survive.

some people are pricks, and some of those pricks are pricks with guns and holy words. nonpricks with guns die just as easily as the pricks. nonpricks without guns go down quickly. so? so, the muslim masses aren't violent--or do not have the capacity for sustained violence. yet.

baker writes "So, if Islam wants to be seen as a religion that cares more about terror, hatred of freedom, and abuse of its citizens, they're doing a great job. Their diplomacy is a matter of making people fear them. Well, we do, but we don't react quite so well as they'd like. We tend to lash out at things that scare us, not serve it as if it were our master."

this could (should) be edited to make a valid, even-handed argument:

"So, if Islam[ic terrorists] want to be seen as a religion that cares more about [fighting western] terror [with their own brand of terror], hatred of [not having] freedom, and[, due to generation upon generation of externally-imposed warfare, having lived with blood-feuds as their sole means of identification and of survival, cannot communicate in any way other than the] abuse of its citizens, they're doing a great job. Their diplomacy [as a response to having violence and fear imposed by external diplomacy] is a matter of [responding to fear and] making people fear them. Well, we do [make them fear for their own lives and beliefs, and in turn feel the fear of the terror they use in response], but we don't react quite so well as they'd like. We tend to lash out at things that scare us [in the same way they do], not serve it as if it were our master[, making our response identical to the response of the isolated minority muslim extremists]."

am i condoning muslim terrorists? nope. is there a difference between muslim and non-muslim terrorists? yep: muslim terrorists are muslim. are muslims terrorists? it seems that some muslims are, in fact, terrorists. does this say something about the teachings of islam? it does, of course, though i'm not informed enough to comprehend exactly what it says.

my instinct tells me, however, that the lesson isn't a matter of identifying a weak, incomplete, poorly-theorized religion. all religions have imposed atrocities upon factions within their own religion and upon other religions. all religions have produced frightened, silent masses. all religions inspire both violence and peace.

in a weird way, i agree with LW's statement: "see you at the barricades, my brothers and sisters. our differences won't seem so important then, and i'll have your back."

i agree, though i assume i'm interpreting her words differently than she intended. and the differences in our interpretations focus upon a single word: "our".

"us and them." okay, we know. but is it a matter of religion?

taboo

The existence of terrorism is basically because they can't make any such war. The Middle East, regardless of their oil wealth, is basically a bunch of third world countries with the money going into the pockets of tyrants and not into the strength of their nation.

At worst, radical Islam will just turn major cities into Tel Aviv, with buses and wedding parties blowing up daily. If that happens it will be a bad time for peaceful Muslims. Hopefully they'll expunge the morons from their ranks in their own self-interest. I'm thinking this foolishness over the cartoons will be a wakeup call to many Muslims.

well, for the most part i agree with both of your last comments.

there's also something great about this line: "if a couple hundred heavily armed fanatical Islamists were marching down the main road towards YOUR home, would you hesitate for a second to band forces with those people you currently 'do battle' with on ideological, religious, racial, or political issues? HELL NO. LoL, as a matter of fact, it would be one time I'd be glad that I live in the part of town that I do, these niggaz here are SERIOUSLY armed."

for me, this gets right to the point. would i hesitate? uh-uh, not unless i peed myself. hopefully even if i peed myself.

the problem, is that our radical enemies right now are the you-ses and me-ses from a hundred years ago. im not trying to open old grudges: but their hoods haven't been "theirs" for a long time. it's not just whitey who's parking his caddie in their garage--everyone's parking shizz all over their prime spots.

like baker says, they don't have the capacity to wage any other kind of war--we could speculate that oil might be a negotiating tactic, but that's not going to do anything for the radicals who want their lives back.

and as for the rest of islam's nation, what are they supposed to do? if we can't nail the terrorist bastards, what are the hated muslims scattered across the world going to do? of all the lousy positions to be in--you're a citizen somewhere, non-violent, escaped a life you saw to be filled with terror and repression or following an exile set by shifting political alliances you could never have done anything about in the first place.

and now everyone thinks you're the guy who drove a mailtruck into the public school playground with explosives tied to your back. never mind that the mailtruck guy is dead, never mind that you have lived peacefully and met the obligations of your religion as you saw fit.

and it is YOU the world is humiliating. the world is bringing you down; not the extremists.

taboo

Aaaaaawwwwwwmmmm. I'm burnin Dharma's embassy.

Can I bring the torches?

so what? so nothing. it's a response to comments like these:

"Islam seems to be a faith built on hatred, vindictiveness and intolerance, no matter what the apologists on the left have to say . . . The vast majority, the "good" Muslims, the "peaceful" Muslims, sit in seemingly approving silence as these mutant, "fringe" Islamic fundamentalists do what they do. This indicts the whole faith, in my mind. "

and then the comment it generated:

"'This indicts the whole faith, in my mind.'
Mine too. I used to think that silence was acceptable, but in the light of the atrocities that have been done in the name of allah *spits* (that's to show union with LW) I've changed my mind. It's time to stand up and be counted. Either condemn and stand against, or be considered part of the problem."

are the silent innocent, no, but it seems to me that comments such as those listed above require a response.

and another comment: "And the Muslims around the world have the power to overcome that stereotype. Instead, they choose to applaud terror and protest cartoons. Let the stricken deer go weep, they've made themselves a nasty bed to lie in."

and the last: "The 'Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer' slogan reaffirms what critics of Islam have said for years: that their goal is a worldwide caliphate where sharia is the basis of all law."

is that what has been reaffirmed? there's plenty of logical fallacies here to go around. so what?

so nothing. let's suppose that we agree that terrorism is bad. fine. but before we hang the religion we're going to have to think things through more clearly than this.

if you can't hang christianity for its misfits, and you can't hang judaism for its misfits, then you can't hang the nation of islam for a small handful of muslims who are pissed enough that their lands, their traditions, and their religious beliefs themselves have been completely subsumed by imperialism--pissed enough to get stupid.

yes, go hang those guys--that's how we've always done it, and i expect we will continue to do things that way. but if there is a world of displaced muslims out there who have been treated like the enemy for being muslim--not for being a radical, not for stirring up the coals, and certainly not for bombing public transportation--but for identifying with their religion, then what do we expect?

we are silent in our "support" for islam's peaceful nation. when extemists get busy, we castrate the whole system of beliefs.

so nothing: it's a response. we agree that terrorists need to be brought down. but if silence implies guilt, then there's several posted responses here that need clarification.

taboo

are the silent innocent, no, but it seems to me that comments such as those listed above require a response.

---Taboo

How about this as a response:

Not so very long ago, 20 million Jews, gypsies and others were imprisoned and then slaughtered for simply existing. This, while the rest of the world sat back and said nothing, until the horrible excesses became apparent. By then, of course, it was much too late.
Those who say or do nothing in opposition are just as guilty as those who take the actions.

I agree with Baker; if they want us to respect their faith and accept that not all are complicit, in one way or another, in these excesses, then they need to speak up and have a few loud protests of their own.
They need to join the military and take arms against them.
So far, we haven't seen much of either.

you forget that it wasn't just the germans who were silent, it was everyone, the whole world was silent.

and the whole world is still silent. yes, the extremists are terrorists. that is all. are you accountable for every--christian, jewish, fill in the blank with your faith, skin color, etc.--perversion that takes place under the umbrella of your own label?

perhaps. in fact, i would probably make exactly that argument within a different context. but in this case, those "silent" muslims are the victims--at least as much as we are, if not more. why are we silent? why don't we stand up for the muslims that truly represent their religion, living peacefully and pursuing the same opportunities as we are?

everyone is silent.

taboo