It's NOT just your fight.

Published on October 3, 2005 By dharmagrl In Misc

Guilty until proven innocent, I see. I see no reason to continue this conversation with someone who has such CLEAR comtempt for the Constitution.

I've been blacklisted, or else I'd respond to this on the relevant thread.

When a person becomes a parent, they have an obligation to protect that child from whatevere they can. They have a responsibility to place the welfare of that child before ANYTHING else. ANYTHING. Ture, there are some thing parents CANNOT protect their children from....but there are some things that ARE preventable. The security of the family unit should come before any political posturing a person wants to make. It should come before making a legal stance. To jeopardize that is....well, it smacks of using children as pawns in a game of 'who's right'. I'm sorry if people think that's harsh, but I think that refusing to do whatever it takes to keep your children living at home with you is a bit bloody harsh as well.

As for being guilty until proven innocent.....unfortunately, that's the way some government agencies work, CPS being one of them. The police are the same way. If a person is reportedly using drugs, for example, and is given the opportunity to prove their innocence by submitting a urine sample...well, why wouldn't they want to do that? PROVE your innocence, SHOW that you have nothing to hide FIRST....worry about the legalities and constitutionality AFTER you've been exonerated.

I've had a run-in with CPS. I pissed off some people in my old neighborhood, people who barely knew me and my family but who took umbridge to my personality and the way I do things. They did an underhanded, cowardly thing, and they called CPS. Numerous times. It started with an allegation of my locking my children in the house alone, then when that was proven to be untrue they said that my house was filthy, my kids were always hungry, my son was wandering the streets with a butcher knife, attacking people, and finally that I was operating a house of prostitution, having sex with strangers in front of my kids. In all, I believe that 5 or 6 complaints were made over the period of a year (and those are just the ones I know about).

When I was informed of these allegations, my first response was "what do I need to do to prove that this simply isn't true?". It wasn't "this is unconstitutional and I'm not going to do it, I'm going to make a stand and prove my point at any cost"....my first concern was protecting my children and doing whatever it took to keep my family together. I let them in my home, they looked around at the unmade beds, the dishes in the sink, the laundry being folded on the couch...they spoke to my kids IN MY PRESENCE, and they went away satisfied that the allegations were completely unfounded and unsubstatiated.

To me, if a person has nothing to hide, they should first prove their innocence, THEN fight the legalities. Keeping the family unit together and the children in the home should be the first priority, NOT proving a point.

When it comes to fighting with DSS, it's NOT just the parent's fight. There are kids involved, and they DESERVE to be protected.

Ww cannot protect our children from EVERYTHING.....but we have an OBLIGATION to protect them from what we can.

Comments (Page 2)

dharmagrl

on Oct 03, 2005

But I was very taken aback by Dharma's accusation of his guilt.

You call THIS an accusation???:

Even I'M starting to wonder exactly what it is that you don't want them to find out.....

Or this:

What are you hiding, Gid? Why are you so afraid to let them in your house?

You say I'm accusing him of guilt? Did you even see this?:

Gideon, you really only cause more suspicion when you take a standoffish attitude with CPS. You could have ended this a few days ago with a simple invitation in your house to show them that no child is being abused. As it were, you now look to many as someone with something to hide, not a champion of freedom.

And I guess it doesn't matter that I said this:

You ask why we're all against you...well, we're not. MY main concern is for you to stay together, for DSS to NOT have any reason to remove your kids. The longer you fight, the more insistent they're going to get, until finally they're going to be LOOKING for reasons to remove your kids. I'm starting to get the feeling that you're being irresponsibly idealistic about this, and that your children are going to suffer because you wanted to make a stand. I KNOW you're a good dad, Gid. I KNOW that your children's well being is your priority. Don't compromise that. Let DSS come and see your home, then, when they've seen that the allegations are unfounded...THEN fight the constitutionality of their actions. Don't lose your kids over this. Which is better: keeping your kids at home with you and fighting AFTER the fact, or making a political point at the expense of your family?

No, DG, you just go right ahead and tell me that I accused him of guilt. Pick and choose your quotes all you damn well want to. Ignore that a lot of other people have expressed the same sentiments as I....pin the blame on me.

If I'M thinking that he's got something to hide, what the fuck do you think CPS are thinking?

dharmagrl

on Oct 03, 2005

Their rights. For if we chuck the constitution now, what are they going to grow up under?

my gawd.....so, you'd rather see them separated from their parents and grow up in the foster care system so that their dad didn't have to have his 4th amendment rights violated??

Nobody's talking about scrapping or chucking the constitution. We're simply saying to prove his innocence and ensure the security of his family FIRST, then fight. Allow them ONE chance to see his home and family, THEN tell them to shove it.

bakerstreet

on Oct 03, 2005

I do find the kind of sad that he could believe anyone here would lie or twist words to make him look guilty, just because we differ with him. Sadly, that is exactly what he is doing, twisting our words to make us look like part of the great moral evil just because we differ with him.

Frankly, I'm done with it. If he interprets what I have said to be some sort of belligerant attack on his ideals, or if he thinks I am some Roy Cohn that would slur him just because I disagree with him, then there's not much to talk about. It seems the damage is already done, no matter what happens with the CPS.

Tova7

on Oct 03, 2005

Dharmagrl,

I didn't think anything you wrote was untoward. I do believe the man feels like he is under attack by CPS and he is fighting with you because he can't fight with them.

Don't take it personal.

Remember the "WHO would you die for?? post?

Isn't it odd how so many said they'd DIE for their kids, but they won't give up their "rights" for them...or what they perceive as being their rights?.

Plenty of families on this planet raise happy healthy families without the 4th amendment, or gasp even a constitution!

That doesn't mean I think we should throw it out.....for ME I would flush it down the toilet if it meant sacrificing my kids. But that's ME.....I'd have made a terrible Roman.....hehe....all "for the empire" and whatnot.

Tova7

on Oct 03, 2005

I wish you'd all cut the man a little break for some of the harsh things he's said today. He's stressin' hard, and these outbursts are not like him.He's having a *very* bad day, and who knows, once he calms down he might see things differently.

I agree with this 100%. We should just give him support and keep our opinions to ourselves....he's gonna have CPS opinions thrust down his throat soon enough......so maybe we should just let him vent.

dharmagrl

on Oct 03, 2005

do find the kind of sad that he could believe anyone here would lie or twist words to make him look guilty, just because we differ with him. Sadly, that is exactly what he is doing, twisting our words to make us look like part of the great moral evil just because we differ with him.

Me too, mainly because I never thought I'd see the day when that would happen....

I wish you'd all cut the man a little break for some of the harsh things he's said today. He's stressin' hard, and these outbursts are not like him.

You're right (again) but......all we're trying to do is help and we're getting shit on because of it.

Thank you for saying so. I didn't think so either.

I would do ANYTHING for my kids. I'd have every freakin' constitutional right I have burned if it meant that my kids could benefit from it. Rights without my family are meaningless......

Dr Guy

on Oct 03, 2005

And I guess it doesn't matter that I said this:

Dharma, until you calm down and realize what you did, I will bow out. I respect both of you too much. Sorry.

dharmagrl

on Oct 03, 2005

Dharma, until you calm down and realize what you did, I will bow out.

I'm calm. I'm just pointing out to you that I didn't accuse him of anything. I simply said that I was beginning to think that he was hiding something, and I asked him what that could be. I never said 'Gid, you have a filthy house and your starve and beat your kids'.

I don't appreciate your implying that I don't know what I did, because I DO know what I did...and it's NOT what you're accusing me of. So yeah, perhaps you better had bow out for a while.....

bakerstreet

on Oct 03, 2005

LW: If that is the way it sounded to me I'd agree. To me he isn't speaking like someone in need, worried about his state. He's speaking like someone who is politicizing a rotten situation and making it more rotten in the process. If this were a Gideon issue, I'd tend to humanize it more, but this is apparently a Libertarian issue.

THAT I can't excuse or feel sorry for. When he describes the townspeople that hate him I hear the exact thing he is trying to describe in his own words, and then I see it projected at me. If this were about his kids and his family, I'd be more apt to cut him some slack.

In reality this seems to be about sticking it to the man, thumbing his nose at assholes in his community, and the constitution. Maybe I'm not seeing how he really feels, but then that is all I am given to see.

Chaos Manager

on Oct 03, 2005

I'm just pointing out to you that I didn't accuse him of anything.
-- Dharmagrl

Not explicitly or in so many words. I can see where those innocous words can be taken as a pointing finger. If I was in Gideon's place, I would (quite likely) take them as an accusation, as well.

Imagine for me, if you will. A man torn apart. The love and devotion he has for his children is being used a weapon against him by spiteful, vicious people (not CPS). They are banking on the fact that most people would cave under the pressure and a) submit and be abused by CPS for the next 17 years or

run away. Either of which would support their goal of making his life miserable.

This same man decides that he's had enough. No more running. No more slinking away in the dark. The small, evil people in town aren't going to win. So, he decides to fight. He's sick and tired of having his love and devotion turned against him.

During all of this stress and anxiety, he turns to a group of people that he thinks of as ... friends, of a sort. A group of similarly minded people that he can use as a sounding board or for sympathy. What does he find? Most of the people disagree with him. Ordinarily, this wouldn't phase him in the least. In these trying circumstances ... he snaps. Every "let them in, they'll leave" is at odds with the stubborn pride and righteous indignation that is welling up inside. Every "what have you got to hide?" pokes into the well of doubts deep inside that ripple over and add flame to the fire that is boiling.

Imagine a scene from a Peanuts movie (pick one, they all have this scene in there somewhere). Charlie Brown has screwed up again. Each of the folks that are supposedly his friends stops by his thoughts to tear into him while he trudges home. Even his dog abandons him to ridicule. Now, it doesn't matter whether or not his friends would actually do this, it's how Charlie Brown THINKS they would react.

Now, change Charlie Brown to Gideon. Can you understand his reaction? I can. It's not necessarily the RIGHT reaction, but it's a valid reaction. It would be my reaction, if I was in Gideon's shoes.

dharmagrl

on Oct 03, 2005

Not explicitly or in so many words. I can see where those innocous words can be taken as a pointing finger. If I was in Gideon's place, I would (quite likely) take them as an accusation, as well.

Well, a LOT of other people have expressed sentiments similar to mine, but I don't see any of THEM being accused of what I stand accused of. So, why me? Because I came out and said what everyone else is thinking?

If this were about his kids and his family, I'd be more apt to cut him some slack.

Yep.

To me he isn't speaking like someone in need, worried about his state. He's speaking like someone who is politicizing a rotten situation and making it more rotten in the process

Yep again. This could be just about keeping his kids out of the foster care system. This could be about getting DSS out of his hair and proving to those in the community who hate him that he's not doing anything wrong.

The DSS machine will chew him up, take his kids, then spit him out. It's a LOT harder to get your kids BACK once they're in the system, and he knows that. It's going to be MUCH easier to prevent their being removed from the home. MUCH easier.

Chaos Manager

on Oct 03, 2005

Because I came out and said what everyone else is thinking?
--Dharmagrl

Unfortunately, that's quite likely true. Doesn't excuse it, though.

Ever play "Whack-a-mole"? First one out of the hole gets nailed ... And this time, you happened to be the first, fastest, and brightest one out of the hole.

This could be about getting DSS out of his hair and proving to those in the community who hate him that he's not doing anything wrong.

The DSS machine will chew him up, take his kids, then spit him out. It's a LOT harder to get your kids BACK once they're in the system, and he knows that. It's going to be MUCH easier to prevent their being removed from the home. MUCH easier.

This appears to be close to the truth, here. At least, according to what I've read over of Gideon's latest article. If he fights, and forces the issue about the court order, then the burden of proof is that much higher (due to criminal proceedings vs civil proceedings). It'll be that much harder for the children to be removed in the first place. Also, the state public defender's office has to step forward and provide counsol.

dharmagrl

on Oct 03, 2005

Unfortunately, that's quite likely true. Doesn't excuse it, though

Nope, it doesn't. Had I said "You're hiding something, I don't believe that this is all over your constitutional rights", then I'd apologize. But, I didn't say that.

Gideon, if you read this, I'm sorry that you felt that I was saying you're guilty. It wasn't meant that way, and I'm sorry that you took it as such. I'm trying to show you how your actions are going to be recieved, dude.....

I have some advice for you from a member of the legal profession, but it's not going to be what you want to hear. let me know if you want it anyway.

drmiler

on Oct 05, 2005

KNOW Gid loves his kids, and I KNOW he's a good man, father, and husband. I'm simply saying that I think he's going about fighting this the wrong way. CPS want inside that house. His bringing food to the door to show the town marshal isn't going to cut it with them...and they are a much, much bigger entity than Gideon is. They WILL get access to the house, one way or another. My fear is that what could have been taken care of with a home visit and a little assistance will end up with the kids being removed and criminal charges being brought. That's not going to serve anybody involved any good at all.

She does have a "VERY" valid point here Gid. "If" CPS wants into your house, one way or another they "will" get in! And they will do it no matter what your wishes are. I agree with you and would probably do it the same way you are. However valid points are being raised here.

Gideon MacLeish

on Oct 07, 2005

Once they obtain that (and I'm sure they will)

doubtful. An anonymous report can't be considered "probable cause".

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