I believe that the earth was created by a higher power and that we are all part of the natural life and death cycle. I believe that we all have a path of life which the higher power picks for us to make our souls stronger. I believe in reincarnation.

Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching, Alison?  I think you'd really enjoy it.

Well, let's start with the obvious....the messiah. Jews don't agree that christ was the messiah. That's kind of a big deal, don't you think?

Yes, but I was thinking of something like something about Judaism that Christianity denies (much like how Muslims and Mormons deny certain aspects of the Bible). Unless I'm mistaken, the messiah is the only thing that separates Jews and Christians, whereas much more separates Gnostics from Christians.

Unless I'm mistaken, the messiah is the only thing that separates Jews and Christians,

http://www.convert.org/differ.htm

You can find a ton of information about the differences at that ^^ link.

I'm probably reading you wrong here, but how can it be the true word of God if it was written by fallible humans?

Yes, you are reading me wrong. Really this comes down to whether or not you believe in God.

Because I believe that the Bible is God's true word. That he would not have himself represented by an erroneous document. Because he would have the power to make sure that whatever happened to it, it would be the way he wanted it.

Yes, you are reading me wrong. Really this comes down to whether or not you believe in God.

I thought I had read you wrong, that's why I asked.  I respect your beliefs, but I still find it the 'written by fallible humans who makes mistakes BUT it's God's divine word' confusing.

 

I can't say I agree with that site. I'm reading the Old Testament right now, and despite what the site said, it does appear that God wanted more than just people "to act good." He doesn't take too kindly to "good people" worshipping false gods. Besides, in the Torah, all three parts of God are mentioned (i.e. the Word of the Lord, the Spirit, and the Father).
One of the problems with the site is its "politically correct" of Jesus: "Some respect him as an ethical teacher who accepted Jewish law, as someone who didn't even see himself as the messiah, who didn't want to start a new religion at all." The problem is that Jesus did claim to be God, which is why the Jews wanted to stone him. Surely claiming to be God and claiming to have the ability to remove sin is not something a good Jew would do.
Besides, some Jews would claim otherwise (although I guess these Jews would not be considered to be Jewish by others): Messianic Jews.

I thought I had read you wrong, that's why I asked. I respect your beliefs, but I still find it the 'written by fallible humans who makes mistakes BUT it's God's divine word' confusing.

Well, it's the Spirit that guided the writers of the books of the Bible. When the Spirit works through us, God is guiding our actions just as a piano teacher would be guiding my hands as she teaches me it.

I was reading Ecclesiastes last night (from 'The Book', not the KJV) and a lot of it read very similarly to The Tao and the Dhammapadda

Isn't it great to find these connections. I am excited and thrilled when I do because I see it as reiteration of my personal beliefs.

Cheers,

Maso

I'm reading the Old Testament right now, and despite what the site said, it does appear that God wanted more than just people "to act good."

Well, remember that the OT isn't the 'be all and end all' of Judaism.  Anyway, my point was that just as there are some major differences between christianity and gnosticism, there are things that make judaism and christianity equally incompatible.

Messianic Jews.

Yeah, jews for jesus.  I talked to my friend martha about that over the weekend.  She's jewish...and she said that mainstream Judaism regards messianic jews as somewhat nutzo....

Well, it's the Spirit that guided the writers of the books of the Bible.

I understand that, but what I found confusing was Beeble's assertion at the beginning of the thread that man wrote the bible and that man was fallible, perhaps emphasising things in the wrong place or in the wrong way....but then he says that god wouldn't let himself be represented by an erroneous document and that he has the power to make it exactly as he wants it.  It would seem to me that it can't be both....its either all god written, exactly as he wants it, or it's written by humans who perhaps screwed it up a little here and there.  THAT'S what I found a little confusing.

I am excited and thrilled when I do because I see it as reiteration of my personal beliefs.

I feel the same way.  When I see things in the Tao that I see in the Dhammapadda and Lotus Sutra, and then I see them AGAIN in the bible or the Koran....that gives me faith and makes me feel very secure and content.

Yeah, jews for jesus. I talked to my friend martha about that over the weekend. She's jewish...and she said that mainstream Judaism regards messianic jews as somewhat nutzo....

I understand why Jews would consider them to be nutty, but I respect them. Besides, the apostles were Jewish Christians and, of course, Jesus was a Jew.

I understand that, but what I found confusing was Beeble's assertion at the beginning of the thread that man wrote the bible and that man was fallible, perhaps emphasising things in the wrong place or in the wrong way....but then he says that god wouldn't let himself be represented by an erroneous document and that he has the power to make it exactly as he wants it. It would seem to me that it can't be both....its either all god written, exactly as he wants it, or it's written by humans who perhaps screwed it up a little here and there. THAT'S what I found a little confusing.

Well, man is fallible, but the Spirit of God is infallible, and these men were working through the Spirit. If God wanted the Scriptures to inerrant, He could make it so, even through humans (just as many of the prophecies, such as the prophecy to Solomon that Israel would be split into two, occurred through humans). It does take faith to believe that the Scriptures were written as God wanted them to. Besides, even fallible man can get things right sometimes.

If God wanted the Scriptures to inerrant, He could make it so,

Which leads me to wonder why he would do such a thing. But, there are a lot of things that I see that make me wonder why he'd do soemthing like that!

I understand why Jews would consider them to be nutty, but I respect them.

Oh, i do too...but I can also see why Martha was perplexed by their stance!

I dont have specific examples because its been a long time since I heard someone answer the same type of question you did. Issue wasnt the best choices of words. Maybe...events is better. In the Bible...Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Thats printed in various books in the bible itself. In one book that is not included in the Bible, it says that he was born in Nazareth or something. Not the same town, it maybe close, but it doesnt match what is said in the rest of the Bible for some reason.

Im going to paste an article I found on the net here...sorry for the size Dharma...but I think it fits fairly well. Its from a Christian perspective on the same topic:

"The whole question of lost books of the Bible hinges on what the Bible is. Now the Bible can only be two things. What is it that we mean when we use the word "Bible"? Well, a Bible is either God's supernatural Word -- God supernaturally oversees its production and its care. Or it 's a statement of beliefs of the leaders of Christianity. They say "this represents what we believe." Disregarding any supernatural element, it's based on consensus. Let's just say we're the only Christians in the world. We say we believe in these things, but we don't believe these other things so throw them out because they don't reflect what we believe. Any group has the right to determine what it is they believe.
Now, notice that there are two ways of looking at this: a supernatural or natural perspective. I would contend that there are no other ways of looking at this question; no other options. No matter who you are out there you either think of the Bible as being God's inspired Word (most of the conservative Christian world holds this view, in some form), or the Bible is merely the statement of beliefs of the early church, without any supernatural content. Pretty much the rest of the world looks at it this way.

Now, the question of the lost books of the Bible comes up. But my problem is: how is it possible that there can be any lost books of the Bible?

Is it possible that in the first sense of the word Bible that the books could be lost? Wait a minute, if God is supernaturally overseeing it, then God is supernaturally involved in seeing that His book gets written down and preserved. So we have God's supernatural protection if it has a supernatural quality to it. You may say that the supernatural element is bogus, but you can see that from this sense of the definition that it's not really possible to think that God could lose His own book. "But man wrote it...." Can you make your dog sit? Of course. If you a mere man can make your dog sit, can't an infinite God oversee the care of His Word? It doesn't matter if man or monkeys were responsible for taking care of it.

Maybe the Bible isn't supernatural, it's a statement of beliefs of the leaders of the church. Okay, if that's the case then who has the final word on which books belong in the Bible? The leaders of the early church. Therefore, by very definition any books that they cast into outer darkness are not part of the Bible. It's their decision to decide which books represent their beliefs. And if they say the Gospel of Thomas isn't our book and somebody else picks it up two thousand years later and say it's a lost book of the Bible, then it's fair to ask "In what sense is it a lost book of the Bible?" It might be a lost book of antiquity, a great archaeological find, a wonderful piece of literature, but a lost book of the Bible? No.

The Bible has to be either a supernatural book, or a non-supernatural book. If it's supernatural -- if God is responsible for its writing, it's transmission and its survival -- then God, being God, does the job right. God doesn't make mistakes, he doesn't forget things, he doesn't get confused about what is true and what is false, and He isn't absent-minded -- He doesn't lose his lessons.

If the Bible is not supernatural -- as many will contend, especially those who claim to have found lost books -- we have a different problem. By what standard do we claim these are bonafide lost books of the Bible? If, from a human perspective, the Bible is that collection of writings that reflect the beliefs of the leaders of early Christianity, then those writings they discard are not parts of the Bible by very definition. It's like writing a book of your personal beliefs from a stack of ideas you've collected over the years and then have someone rummage through your trash to find other beliefs you didn't include and then claim that these were your secret or lost beliefs. You say, "No, they're not my beliefs; that's why they're in the trash. If they were were really mine, they'd be in the book.

The irony is that many of the the "lost books" advocates make the point that these books they've rediscovered, books like the so-called Gospel of Thomas, were missing because the church fathers "suppressed" them, which is another way of saying the early Christians threw them out, trashed them. And the accusation is true. They did. Critics think this strengthens their case. It doesn't; it destroys it, because it proves that these books were simply not accepted by the leaders as representative of their beliefs. So therefore it can't be their Bible.

The Jesus Seminar people are taking a little different tack. They reject the idea that the Bible has supernatural origins. They suggest that since it's just man's opinion anyway, we should have a recall vote on the Bible and fix the defects. We should reconvene and reshuffle the deck, tossing some books out and including others to reflect what the church now believes about spiritual truth, which means "what the Jesus Seminar now believes about spiritual truth." They are not using the "lost books of the Bible" tack.

So regardless of your view of the Bible -- supernatural or natural -- there is no sense in which it makes any sense to talk of lost books of the Bible. Ergo it's impossible, rationally -- nothing to do with spiritual commitments at all -- that there can be anything like lost books of the Bible. The phrase just doesn't make any sense. "

The Bible has to be either a supernatural book, or a non-supernatural book

That's somewhat black and white, and simplifies the issue. But I think the Bible is both, in that it describes supernatural events and principles, ("supernatural", here, referring to things 'beyond this world', or beyond the scope of science. For instance, the existence of the hereafter, and what might have existed before the world began). But at the same time, I believe the Bible is non-supernatural, because it was written 'in this world', by human hands, albeit inspired by a supernatural Mind.

If it's supernatural -- if God is responsible for its writing, it's transmission and its survival -- then God, being God, does the job right

The fact that the Bible is not perfect, (and there are definitely contradictions and errors in the Bible), does not mean that God made a mistake - even if God chose to be responsoble for the Bible's content. After all, from within the context of the bigger picture, it might actually be "perfect" for this world not to be perfect. It might simply be part of the plan. I believe that it's part of our spiritual journey to explore the Territory first hand - including this world and the spiritual realms (which can be tapped from within, via a heighthened spiritual awareness) - rather than simply be told what to do. Our Holy Scriptures are like maps, which attempt to describe the Territory and show us the way.

If holy scriptures are tainted with human emphasis, is it not possible that we've got some parts of it completetly wrong? That us humans have taken the ball and run in the wrong direction with it?

I completely agree with this Dharma. I think it's happened many times in our Holy Books. For example, is there an eternal lake of fire to which God sends people who don’t believe? If one choose to believe so, then is it a Christian lake of fire, where all non-Christians go, or is it a Muslim lake of fire, where all non-Muslims go?

I think we can decipher for ourselves which religious revelations are aligned with ‘Truth’ by aligning them with our own inner wisdom and with the compassionate capacity of our heart. We’ll probably come to different conclusions, of course, because we’re all at different stages of spiritual growth. But I think the key is to find inner peace with our own faith and with our own interpretations.

I have a very "East meets West" view of religion. I believe that the earth was created by a higher power and that we are all part of the natural life and death cycle. I believe that we all have a path of life which the higher power picks for us to make our souls stronger. I believe in reincarnation. ... I think that the higher powers are infinite.

I love that. I think that's brilliant, and describe a simple, but true, model of the world. It's what I believe too. I think the basic common ground that appears throughout all our Holy Scriptures is:

(1) God, or a Higher Force exists
(2) Life has a deeper purpose
(3) There’s a bigger picture, and all is not death and finality