Correcting these behaviors would start with the parents. Willy Wanka hit it on the head when he was saying who’s fault lies when your kid is a brat? The Mother and the Father. Without proper parenting kids will suffer from it.

It sounds like these kids have a lack of control and discipline, and were also brought up to hate. If the parents hold ignorant prejudice attitudes the children will adopt similar views in life.

I can say that I am not a parent myself, but I am a proud uncle to a wonderful niece. She is not hit but she is taught early about rewards and consequences. She is taught that if she misbehaves there are consequences and the severity of the punishment follows with the seriousness of her transaction.

Now these children behaving so poorly and acting so ignorant, where else can the fault lie, then their parents who refuse to take the imitative and take action in their lives. How are they supposed to have good children if their parenting skills is surely lacking. If they cannot be bothered to teach their children right from wrong the behavior and cycle will continue. Unfortunately ignorance like this does not get cured into a serious wake up call has happened. Let us hope the lesson will not happen when it is too late.

I really don't think its a black issue... I think that its a general parenting issue, there are a lot of shitty parents out there. Say there are 100 kids in your neighborhood. 75 are black, because they are the majority, most of the "bad kids" would most likely be made up of the racial majority.. Does that make sense?

Or I could be talking out my ass..... it is getting late

dharmagrl: Thanks for the hearty welcome, Ive been watching your blog for awhile now.

I dont spank my children very often any more and when we do we follow rules my wife and I thought up before we had kids:
1.) We never spank when we are angry. Spankings are not a parents chance to take out their anger or to revenge themselves upon a bad child, but as a memorable punishment that drives home the seriousness of the wrongdoing being punished.
2.) We only give as many swats as the age of the child. This allows us to maintain the consistancy I mentioned earlier, and matches the physical punishment to the childs physical maturity.
3.) Most importantly we always talk to our child shortly before they receive the spanking, and then we discuss with them the why, what, when & where of the situation after the punishment. We always include love and firmness with these talks, and explain why the consequences were so bad that they received a spanking (they always know ahead of time, spankings are never a surprise).
4.) Spankings occur immediatly after the bad behaviour. I wont let my kids sit in dread of when the spanking is coming... thats just wrong.
Thats our guidelines for spanking, and they seem to work. Their little bottoms DO hurt afterwards, but they tie that pain into the consequences of their actions. Luckily the older they get the less they do that merits this form of punishment... out of three kids we spank MAYBE once every 2-3 months: I guess my kids are pretty good.

This is a topic that is close to heart at the moment so it has been interesting reading everyone's responses.

I live in a relatively wealthy part of London. Every night children are on the local streets setting fire to garbage bins, stealing mountain bikes, swearing in the loudest voices possible and generally causing so much trouble that the cops are around here every two or three nights. These children are all white, all decked out in the latest fashion (if that's what you can call it!) all carrying the newest model mobile phone and those who are old enough seem to all race around on Vespas.

I used to wonder how kids with so much could still be wanting to brawl and cause such disturbances but then came to the same conclusion as other people here. Their parents may be generous with their money, but it seems that they aren't generous with their time.

These children have no boundaries. Firstly there is no way in hell my parents would have allowed me to be on the street at 10 o'clock at night, yet hoards of these children seem to think it is normal. While there may be some who sneak out, the majority are obviously allowed. Secondly, if the police were regularly moving me on because my friends and I were causing a disturbance (do I mean regularly? I actually mean once!) i would have been grounded so long I'd forget what the outside world looked like!

While I hated my parents for all their rules I can now see exactly why they had them. I think that, apart from people being too lazy/busy/ignorant to properly discipline their children, many parents don't want to be the bad guy. They don't want their kids to think that they're mean or unfair, so they let them get away with murder. Which basically means it is a situation of children raising children.

However, blaming the parents is easy to do. I'm sure that children who are just bad news do exist. I'm sure that there are parents who agonize over how to discipline a seemingly uncontrollable child. I just don't think that there are many cases of these out there.

I am a father of 3 girls and I have never spanked my kids in there life due to how I was brought up so when I had kids I talked it over with my partner at the time and worked out how we would punish our children and so far it has worked great guns they care about other people hardly ever do anything wrong and have never done anything that would even warrant a spanking.

But also I believe it has also got to do with how we treat them aswell for them to be like they are, basicaly we treat them as our equal they do wrong we explain why its wrong and help them to understand why its wrong and 99% of the time by the time we finish talking they agree and with my eldest daughter who is now almost 15 we have prob had had to have one of these little chats about 10 times in her life. I get comments all the time about how good my kids are and even with me being the main parent now with my 15 yr old and working I still have no problems with her what so ever.

So basicaly what I am saying its not really a matter of being able to spank them its more a matter of how YOU treat your kids if you treat them and how YOU deal with them in times of trouble....


"" little_whip

He also seemed to relish the act, and anticipate it eagerly, i can still see the belt coming off the moment we walked through the door...as if he could hardly wait to beat us. The worst part, though, and i hope you keep this in mind when you spank your children, was being forced to hug and kiss him and 'make up' after the beating. In those moments i literally despised him, and giving him a hug or kiss was the LAST thing i wanted to do. I was hurt and angry and wanted to calm down alone. To deny him this forced 'forgiveness' was to risk raising his ire even more, and our attitude after a beating could quickly earn us another one. """

Hate to say this but to me this sounds like he was getting his jollies out of this.....

nottie.

I think that the PC police are a lot to blame.  There were a lot of careless parents when I was growing up but their kids still got discipline at school.  Now the teachers and administrators can't touch the kids.  I know a lot of kids that straightened up just by being threatened with having to go to the principal for a spank with the big paddle with the holes in it.  Teachers could give you a nice stinging whack on the bottom with a yard stick if you cussed.  Now teachers get cussed out and physically threatened all the time.  What happens?...They suspend the kid.  Is that a punishment?...Hell no!  Mom and Dad are at work or just didn't give a damn in the first place.  Either way it is vacation for the punk.

When I was growing up not only did you respect adults but you also had respect for the older kids.  I don't see that at all anymore.  It is extremely frustrating.

Back in the day when a smartass kid who disrupted a class could be pulled from class and smacked with a very large board on the ass. That is when kids had respect. Today, you even look at a hoodrat wrong and they cry foul.

Remind those kids that yell child abuse and I'm gonna sue you that if they do they'll end up in foster care while your in jail. This works really well especially if they know other kids that are in the foster care system.

My 9 year old tried it once when she got a spanking and I handed her the phone told her to go ahead and call but, that if she did she wouldn't be able to live with mommy and daddy anymore, because we'd be in jail and she'd be in foster care.. She hasn't tried it since and yes she still get the occasional swat.

Most of what is said here is true. For the most part though, the important thing is, the parents or parent have to make time for the child. If they don't, then the child knows no limits or have no boundaries to follow. It doesn't matter whether the parent is working or is a full-time mom. It has to do with how much time is spent with the child to teach him or her the values you as a parent have and want them to follow. I'm a full-time worker and a mom of three children, teenager to toddler years. They do try sometimes to follow their friends but they know the standards to which their dad and I uphold them to. Surprising enough, if there's any spanking to be done, if you call what I do spanking, I'm the one who does it and that's not spanking with a strap or anything, it's a couple of slaps on the butt or the arm to get their attention to let them know what they did is wrong and not acceptable and this is done only under extreme circumstances like really bad behaviour. My husband doesn't like to hit, and frankly neither do I, but there are times when it's required. We mostly discipline them by talking it out, giving time out, grounding and/or denying them their allowances. This might seem flimsy to some people but to my kids this kind of punishment is like the end of the world to them. I encourage my children to talk to us about any and everything and I tell them come to us with any questions if they ever have a problem and they do. There are times when they come to me with stories about their friends' behaviour or their friends' parents treatment fo them and I always talk it out with them. Once my eldest daughter's friend wrote her a letter asking for help and after talking to her to find out what was going on, I contacted the schools guidance counselor to see what they could do without causing disruption to that family. So, you see, it depends on whether or not there are any time spend with the kids and how they are encouranged by their parent.

Dharmagrl, What seems to be going on in your neighborhood is a lack of understanding and acknowlegement of the parents for their kids behavior and also a lack of time being spent with them. The kids probably need an outlet like a recreation center or someplace where they can hang out doing something constructive, like playing games or something. The fact the parents you approach come off as they do shows their lack of understanding and as you say, that's where the kids' behavior comes from. It's unfortunate when kids are like that and all they need is a firm "kick in the butt" and I don't mean that literally, but rather someone or a group that will bring them to realize what they are doing is wrong and get them to put their energies elsewhere. It's sad too that these kids are aware of what their parents limitations are as to what they can and cannot do because all they have to do is squeal child abuse to have the authorities at their doors. If the parents were doing their jobs and disciplining them from "baby stages" they wouldn't be the way they are now. Sometimes though we have to look at the parents before focusing on the kids to find out why they didn't or couldn't discipline their child; i.e. emotional or psychological problems etc. Also, from the threads I've read, these kinds of problems with kids and teens just doesn't happen because of the colour of their skins (not denying who is doing it in your neighborhood Dharmagrl) or how much money their parents have or dont' have (although the latter part of it could be a reason), but rather kids in general will behave this way due to the influences of their friends. Peer influence is a powerful thing. They all want to fit into the group and not be an outcast. It all boils down to what we have all said, the involvement of the parent is very crucial to discipline and set boundaries and limitations so that the child knows what they can or cannot do and what is absolutely not acceptable. Without a parents invovlement, there is nothing.

The kids probably need an outlet like a recreation center or someplace where they can hang out doing something constructive, like playing games or something.

We have 2, a rec center for kids and then a separate one for teens.  They seem to prefer to roam the streets in packs, smoking (although they're underage) and being obnoxious.

I think that peer influence is a big reason they don't go to the teen center....

Children are born innocent. They are affected by heredity and environment. Since heredity is out of the picture once a child is born, it is environment which is where this issue arises. Children are a reflection of their parents. Parent who must both work for that shiny SUV, remodelled house, vacations, and everything else that detracts from showing interest in their children, are criminal on the parental quality scale. Parents farm their children out to child care as soon as they are 6 weeks old, so the child is robbed of exlusive bonding to a parent and must devise mischief to ring that emotional attention out of a day care provider that is stretched thin among many children, and cannot satisfy that child no matter how good a provider they might be. These same parents seek babysitters on the weekend so they can enjoy their time free of the needs of their children and their jobs, both. The modern paradigm is to demand more of day care, rather than seek a way to join with your children during their precious first few years. How few parents even consider a sacrifice to be with their children, as they sacrifice their children for their SUV. Perhaps it is the parent that should be licensed, rather than the child care provider, so that we, as a society, could renew our commitment to our children. We may find that we get a better class of child from a better class of parent.

It's not such a bad idea at all, it certainly would help with cetain families that would value careers, or worse yet, drugs and partying over their own children. But what would a test be like for parenting? What values/morals and questions would necessity the answers for good parents? How do you work it, that you have to achieve a 100% or would there be a sliding scale? Would a C+ parent be good enough to be a good parent?

Soldierdad got an insightful for that response...

I think that women being told we can 'have it all' - a career, a family, a home and be successful at each one - I think that has a lot to do with why kids are the way they are.  We can have it all, yes...but our kids are the ones who lose out.  Gone are the days of the matriarch, the woman whose primary concern was her family.  Instead of Suzie Home-maker we have Gloria Go-getter...women who work full-time, who have houses that look like something out of Better Homes and Gardens and whose kids wear Gap and Calvin Klein clothing.  On the surface they may appear to have then 'perfect' life, but scratch a little deeper....you'll see that someone, somewhere down the line is losing out, and more often than not it's the kids. The kids are the ones who are being sent to school and daycare, who are being pushed aside in the evenings because their parents are too tired to talk to or play with them, who are being left with sitters on the weekend so mom and dad can go relax after their hard week at work....kids need time, quality time spent with their folks, not X-boxes and Gameboys (although they won't tell you that).  We can't just keep tossing money and toys at our kids and hoping that will improve their behaviour.  It won't. 

Anyway, I'm rambling so I'll shut up now!

There is no shade of grey on this issue. There are parents who (or single parent families) that use every ounce of their ability to make the family magic happen for their child(ren). They are the caring ones, that take their personal joys and relaxation only after the kids have had the desired interaction. These are not thought of as "kids" but little people who are the most important in the world. These parents don't drive expensive vehicles, worry about clothing or the house. The do not subvert their primary roles for materialism. And the other side of the coin, those parents that finance their children's upbringing through various surrogate parenting, however common and accepted by society, become generic "kids" to be scheduled, trained, and indoctrinated through all manner of organization outside of a personal parent-child relationship, are far less likely to develop the human perspective which would make a well-balanced person instead of the subhuman, manipulative trouble-prone child that exhibits anti-social behavior.

Soldierdad, I'm terribly impressed....can you tell me a little about yourself?  I'm just wondering where you get your knowledge from.