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Good cause, bad practice.
Published on June 5, 2004 By dharmagrl In Current Events

I've been a frequent visitor to www.pervertedjustice.com in the past few days. 

This is site that has volunteers go into chat rooms posing as teenage girls and waits for some older man to take the bait and engage them in conversations of a sexual nature.  They then tell him he's been 'busted' and post his personal info (name, age, picture, phone number and even address on some cases) on the front page of the site.  They call it 'taking down wanna be pedophiles'. 

Something about this site made me uneasy.  Really uneasy.  So I went and did a little searching. 

Contrary to what the sites owners would have you believe, they're not endorsed by Law Enforcement Authorities.  The link that they have on the site to their 'police friends' is actually to 'Police World', a message board that is supposed to be for law enforcement officers but that anyone can join.  In fact, I've found more evidence and statements from LE officers and officials saying that they think it's a bad idea than I have in support of the site.

The main concern seems to be that the volunteers aren't trained.

"The Perverted Justice investigator wanna be's think it's so easy to go into a chat room and just start talking, and for them it is, because they have no goals in mind other than humiliating someone and getting media attention" said Julie Posey, a Colorado activist who has worked with police in chat-room stings for 8 years and helped convict more than 70 men.

Ray Johnson, a deputy investigator with the Internet crime unit for the Wayne County MI sheriff's department said that vigilante stings also make prosecution more difficult, because they put people on notice that police might investigate them, and they don't folow the rules the police use to avoid issues on entrapment. Deputy Johnson said that if he tried to use transcripts of chat room come-ons in a criminal proceeding "they'd throw it right out in a heartbeat"

My own personal investigative sources (Not my husband) state that whilst they too agree that PJ's volunteers "hearts are in the right place" but that "they're playing a dangerous game and leaving them selves wide-open for prosecution.  Police departments are doing things to try and catch these perverts, and these folks make our job that much harder"

So, it would seem that my feeling of uneasiness is somewhat justified.  Don't misunderstand me, I want to see these losers exposed as much as the next person.  But, I want to see them prosecuted, to see them jailed, to see their names of the Sex Offender's registry. I want to see the job done properly, with the backing of law enforcement and the US criminal justice system. Pervertedjustice.com , while it's intentions are good, in my opinion just isn't the appropriate means to get that job done.

 


Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 05, 2004
I'd never heard of this before, so I found it very intriguing. I don't actually know what to think about it. I agree these people need to be caught, and volunteers taking the time and effort to do this, I have great respect for them, because they are actually willing to do something about the situation, instead of standing by and just letting it happen. However, I have to say I share your uneasy feeling, even though I think it's a good thing to do, these people need to be caught and dealt with properly, I would much prefer that than it to be a half ass effort, some things no matter how long it takes it has to be dealt with by the professionals.
on Jun 05, 2004

I expect them to be sued for libel someday, probably because somebody does something that I said is possible on the original post (impersonating somebody to get them placed on that site).

on Jun 05, 2004

I would much prefer that than it to be a half ass effort, some things no matter how long it takes it has to be dealt with by the professionals.

Exactly.  Some of these cases aren't going to hold water in court, then we're back to square one.

Saiyan: I can see it coming.  It's not going to take much...it's any publicity hungry attorney's dream.

on Jun 05, 2004

I wonder how many of those who "pose" as young girls are actually acting-out a role-play fantasy.


Even though soliciting underage sex via chatrooms is a bad thing, I can't imagine that too many people would really be that into being vigilantes in their spare time, unless they get a "thrill" out of seducing older men.


There are law enforcement agents who are paid to do these stings.  Doing it for free in one's spare time is a bit creepy.

on Jun 05, 2004

There are law enforcement agents who are paid to do these stings. Doing it for free in one's spare time is a bit creepy.

One of their arguments is that LE officers don't do enough, because there are all these perverts still out there. The counter to that argument is just because you don't see the work being done, it does not mean that it's not there.  It is.  Officers and investigators can't go into chat rooms badge in hand, so to speak...they have to tread very carefully and quietly in order to not spook these guys.

I think that people just want to feel that they're doing something, and that's why they do it.  I did it today  http://dharmagrl.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=17479  Not to the extent that I turned anyone in, but just to see for myself that this stuff really does happen. It does.  As for people volunteering themselves and doing this....like I said, good cause, bad practice.

on Jun 05, 2004
Thanks for the great research. I wasn't sure about the site too.
on Jun 05, 2004

I wasn't sure about the site too


Good, so it wasn't just Kingbee and I then.....

on Jun 05, 2004
There is no class of criminal more universally reviled than the pederast or pedophile (or paedophile, for you Brits out there.) They are every parent's nightmare (I have two kids, including a lovely 9-year old daughter.) But this smacks of entrapment, something that will not hold up in court. I am perticuarly put-off by the phrase "chat room come-ons" since it is not clear who is coming on to whom.

I am curious as to how much effort that is being devoted to catching on-line perpertrators has been diverted from catching real-life pedophiles. Oh, I well understand that some percentage of the on-line perverts seek to set up meetings, etc. But look at the media attention that on-line chat room abuse gets and compare that to the lack of attention given to children who are molested by relatives or adults that they trust. While efforts like Perverted Justice may make us feel that we are doing good, I don't think that they really treat what is a serious problem in the US.

Here are some statistics about pedophilia in the US: http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wiki.php?title=Pedophilia If you are a parent, don't expect to sleep well tonight after reading these. There are an estimated 250,000 to 500,000 pedophiles in the US, according to the Dept. of Justice. The typical child sex offender molests an average of 60 to 117 children, most of who do not report the offense, according to The National Institute of Mental Health.

Most child molestors are either relatives or people that know the children well, not strangers from the internet. Why don't we put our limited resources where we will get the most concrete results? That is into programs to educate children and to make sure that they know that there is an an adult that they can trust to help them.
on Jun 05, 2004

But this smacks of entrapment, something that will not hold up in court. I am perticuarly put-off by the phrase "chat room come-ons" since it is not clear who is coming on to whom.

That's what I thought too.  That's why I don't think the PJ style justice is too great...like the officer said, none of those 'chat room come-on's" would stand a chance in court.

on Jun 05, 2004
i went that site dramagirl and that shit is fucked up. you gotta remember some them bitches are pretty whack too my brother was talkin smack with some bitch on the net and she said she was 18 but she wasn't anywhere close my brother not like these weirdos but he made her show id and she didn't have none so he said fuck it. what happens if some guy get fooled too then the man all up in his shit about fuckin some 14 year old girl that shit ain't cool. frank said i cuss too much sorry i'm not gonna erase this but i try to stop. he's laughin but he says i oughta cut it out.
on Jun 05, 2004

Tell frank I said it's cool to cuss on my blog, so shut up.

I know what you mean, some girls are just as devious as the perverts.

You know, you said that you don't read too well...I don't see it.  I see you writing well, getting your thoughts across....which means that you must be reading ok in order to do that.

You're doing alright...keep it up!

on Jun 05, 2004
im glad you dug into it deeply enough to determine what that site is all about...altho i guess the name (perverted justice) says it pretty well.

i just read your other article and im gonna leave part of my comment here (i dont mean to harangue on your blog and please delete it if you wish) the most important thing ordinary citizens can do to protect their children is supervise them. any adult who allows (or doesnt prevent) a minor child from spending time in messenger-type chat rooms or with 'friends' the child has met in yahoo, aim or msn-type chats is acting as negligently as if they drove the same child to a carnival, theatre, shopping mall, beach, concert, etc. and dropped him or her off to wander around unattended. actually its probably more negligent because most of those venues implement some sort of security.
on Jun 05, 2004

altho i guess the name (perverted justice) says it pretty well.


I thought so too.

on Jun 06, 2004
So, it would seem that my feeling of uneasiness is somewhat justified. Don't misunderstand me, I want to see these losers exposed as much as the next person. But, I want to see them prosecuted, to see them jailed, to see their names of the Sex Offender's registry. I want to see the job done properly, with the backing of law enforcement and the US criminal justice system. Pervertedjustice.com , while it's intentions are good, in my opinion just isn't the appropriate means to get that job done.


I agree, Dharma....this is something best left to the trained professionals. I know the PD here in our town has been very busy lately, busting men who show up, after internet conversations, expecting to meet teen girls or boys. It makes me breathe just a little easier every time I hear of an arrest....but also strengthens my reserve to watch my girls closely when they are online.
on Sep 25, 2004
Dharmagrl............ i think the web site is doing a great job. did you see DATELINE tonight on NBC? it was about that website and showed perverts looking for 12 yr olds. it was an excellent show.
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